Episode 098: Moving On After Divorce
Episode 098: Moving on After Divorce with special guest David J. Glass, JD, PhD
Divorced and ready to move on? Where do you go from here? David J. Glass, JD, PhD., Family Law Attorney, former Therapist, and author of the new book Moving On, Redesigning Your Emotional, Financial, and Social Life After Divorce, shares his divorce experience and the opportunity it gave him to rebuild a successful life. David shares great insight and helpful tips to assess your current situation, learn from your past relationships, acquire skills to prevent repeating lesson, and explore your options to begin creating the life of your dreams.
Leanne: 00:00:07 Welcome to episode 98. I am your host Life Lafter Divorce. Welcome back to another wonderful week of hey, we are back and we are excited to be here with you as always, and while you’re tuning in make sure you rate, review and subscribe. We want to hear from you and feel free to check out the website, out lifelafterdivorce.com. In fact, the new year is right around the corner and I invite you to book a Free One on one life coaching session with me. Why not jumpstart your New Year and get it off right? I want to hear what your big dream is. I want to help you get there. So go ahead and book your session. You know,
The Boyfriend: 00:00:46 So Leanne, I have a question.
Leanne: 00:00:47 I know you’re looking at me.
The Boyfriend: 00:00:48 Yeah, because I’ve always wondered about this. What is, what do people think that the new years, the big time to start something big in their life? I don’t. I just, it’s just the day to me. It’s like you go from December 31st to January first. It’s another day. Get ready to go back to your work. Why is, why is that such a big, a stepping point for people to try to make changes in their life?
Leanne: 00:01:12 Probably because they just spent the holidays with their family.
The Boyfriend: 00:01:14 But what will you look at the stats in about the gyms and things? Everyone like gym memberships are big and then by 30 days no one’s going to the gym again. So they, they put all this effort into making a change in their life at the beginning of the year, but then it never, I don’t know, some people don’t follow through with it and it’s like a, a false milestone in my sort of thinking
Leanne: 00:01:36 It is in some regards. I guess it’s just a measurement of time and it still look back and reflect, reflect what happened in this year. Where was I at the beginning and how far have I come or how far have I not come? What happened? I mean, I don’t know. That’s a measurement of time that just we celebrate the ending of it or maybe the ringing in the new year.
The Boyfriend: 00:01:58 I think it’s a terrible thing we do,
Leanne: 00:02:02 but there’s other, there’s other reasons like when we think of back to our year, we’ve had significant life changing events occur, right?
The Boyfriend: 00:02:11 Yeah. But it’s. But it was just coincidence. It happened in
Leanne: 00:02:15 this past year. Just a coincidence, but part of life. Right. But we’ve had numerous things happened in this past year that we probably didn’t discuss on those up this podcast because it didn’t have to do with our usual topics, but there were, we’ve had a lot of significant changes in our life that made us step back and go, wait, you know, change our core,
The Boyfriend: 00:02:34 which brings me to my point. When things happen in your life, that’s when you make changes or do reflections not so much on time durations.
Leanne: 00:02:44 Right.
The Boyfriend: 00:02:45 Yeah.
Leanne: 00:02:45 So maybe for people who haven’t had big things happen, new years seems like an appropriate place because that’s the highlight of the year for the rest of us who’ve had big things. It probably happened around that time, like a divorce. Right.
The Boyfriend: 00:03:01 I wonder why you brought that up.
Leanne: 00:03:02 I don’t know because I know after my divorce is especially after the second one, I had to really step back and go, oh, let’s reevaluate what’s happening here. I, you know, obviously needs to take a closer look at what’s happening in my life and what choices I’m making and things like that. And where do I go from here? Right. Because all after a divorce, all of your previous plans and dreams are kind of shattered and broken. So it’s a wide open space ahead of you and it’s, it’s a great time to, to, to write, transform, evolve.
The Boyfriend: 00:03:45 That makes sense to me. If it was after a big thing versus a danger a year change, whatever.
Leanne: 00:03:51 Yeah. Something life changing, a life changing event has probably more significance than just a time of a year. Right. So in this case, I’m excited because our guest this week, which is perfect for the end of the year also because a lot of people even reflect on this more as the holidays approach, is how do I move on? Like in, in the past, we’ve talked a lot to people about how to get through a divorce. We’ve talked to how to manage and reduce stress during the holidays when you’re going through this process, we’ve talked all about the beginning stages, knowing when you’re going to get divorced, but what about really once the process is behind you, things are finalized, you get a little closure on it and now you’re looking ahead and going, where do I go from here? How do I move on? And today’s guests actually just wrote a book about that in the book was released, on December 11, have a copy of my hands. I’m very excited about. It’s called Moving On, Redesigning Your Emotional, Financial and Social Life After Divorce by David j glass. And David is very unique because not only is he is an author, but he also checks off several other boxes. I’m a divorce. Which boxes is he divorced? Yes, divorced. He is a family law attorney and former therapist, therapist, an attorney and now author. And a divorcee. A. So not only is he an expert in the law field for, for this and for a therapist and I mean he kind of from his own personal experience to his professional experience, brings a lot to the table in this book and I’m really excited because we had a boyfriend, we had a great talk with him today. He’s very, extremely knowledgeable, knowledgeable, and articulate. as I really liked his approach to this whole thing and recreating his whole his whole life.
The Boyfriend: 00:06:05 I appreciated it.
Leanne: 00:06:06 Yes you did because you have that analytical mind and I can appreciate research and logic and I had the laugh because, you know, this comes into play where we talk about, well, you know what, let’s let David talk about it. So without further ado, Dr David Glass.
Leanne: 00:06:44 Welcome to the Life Lafter Divorce Podcast. David.
David Glass: 00:06:47 Thanks so much for having me today. Happy to have you here and in person. So the boyfriend’s here too.
The Boyfriend: 00:06:51 Hi, how are you?
David Glass: 00:06:52 Great, good.
Leanne: 00:06:54 Yeah. So I’m excited because. So for our listeners, we’re just talking about how the boyfriend was setting this up and everything. But the awesome thing about David as our guest today is he fits in all he checks all the boxes. So He’s been divorced. You are an attorney, you were a therapist and you’re an author. That’s right. So, so nice. Are Your parents divorced?
David Glass: 00:07:18 No, my parents aren’t divorced.
Leanne: 00:07:20 Okay. Okay, good. Well, good for them. But glad we didn’t have to check off that box. It’s like four huge things. And so we want to talk to you because you just wrote a book that just came out on the 11th, called moving on and it’s redesigning your emotional, financial and social life after divorce. So I’m really excited to get into that because there’s so much to talk about. But I’m curious because you do check all these other boxes and you’ve been married and divorced. Were you an attorney at the time of your divorce?
David Glass: 00:07:51 I was. Okay. And then I got into this. I was a psychology major, undergraduate and intending to be a psychologist and I had a mentor who told me in the undergraduate years, unless you sub specialized very quickly, you’re going to have trouble getting a job in maintaining a career. There’s too many psychologists out there and so I found a program there. There were three at the time where you got your law degree and your psychology phd at the same time and they squeezed five years of phd program in three years of law into a five year program. And so I applied to it. They took two, two of us, they take two people a year and I got into the program intending to then be a forensic psychologist and have this specialty in the intersection of the law and psychology. And as I went through the program, I thought I’d be a better lawyer but, but had gotten into it to be a psychologist. And so my first job was as a psychologist and I’m a. It just didn’t suit me. After two years I I went back to the last law firm I had worked at who had said to me, if you ever decide not to be a psychologist, come be a lawyer with us. And I called him up one day and they said, when can you get here? So yeah, so I spent a very short time as a psychologist and then for the last 21 years I’ve been practicing as a divorce lawyer.
The Boyfriend: 00:09:05 Wow. So did. So I know this is not more difficult questions, but did you get a sense when you were in school that you wanted to go to the lawyer? Were you feeling, was it the pull to you? A little more than the psychology?
David Glass: 00:09:17 It actually was. And so with five, a five year program each summer I had to get an internship. So one summer I was working as a therapy intern. One summer I worked at this law firm that did family law and it seemed like a perfect intersection between law and psychology and allowing me to use both areas, of my learning. One summer I worked at the public defender. They have a mental health unit and another one I did drug addiction. I’m a drug and alcohol addiction treatment and I had a sense that I would be a really good attorney and I could probably be an okay psychologist. That was my sense coming out of it, but I had gotten into it to be a psychologist in the first place. So I finished out that route. I got a job, I did my internship, I got a job as a psychologist but sitting there and people would come in for 50 minutes and then I scratch notes for 10 minutes and the next person would come in.
David Glass: 00:10:07 It was too sedentary, for, for the way I work. And even the type of therapy I was doing, I was doing cognitive behavioral therapy and in this subtype called rational emotive therapy, which is very, it’s a very aggressive type of therapy comparatively. It’s still, was, it still, it didn’t allow me to be pushy enough to my personality. You know, as a therapist, you’re letting people come along in their own time. You’re trying to encourage them. And I just wanted to jump in and say this is what you should do and this is going to be good for you and I can solve, I can help solve your problems. That’s not being a good therapist, but this being a good lawyer, being especially family law attorney, I can be as pushy as I want to be. and I think I need to be. And then if people don’t take my advice, that’s on them and I’m a. and so it just fits better.
Leanne: 00:10:55 Fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. So you had met your wife when, when you were an attorney or prior?
David Glass: 00:11:03 Oh, we met in law school and she, she was just going to say just an influx, just going to law school. And I was in the law school and in the medical school where I got my phd. So she graduated before me, after she graduated. But before I graduated we got married. We lived in Philadelphia for a number of years. We had two kids. And then 15 years ago we moved out to Los Angeles. And then within about five years we got divorced and sets maybe 10 years ago.
Leanne: 00:11:33 Wow. So you were together
David Glass: 00:11:35 total of 15 years years. Wow. Okay. Two kids and a cross country move and. Yeah. And the. I mean the girls were three and six months and it was, it was sort of a situation. We were happy living outside Philadelphia, but we came out to Los Angeles for a trip. Her sister had recently moved to Los Angeles, had married a big time literary agent in Beverly Hills and we were in the pool after thanksgiving. And so if you’re from the east coast, you normally playing touch football, dressed up and hat and gloves on the street. And here we’re sitting in the pool and I said offhandedly, boy, I could really live out here. And my then a brother in law said you could and you should. And he got on the phone and he made two appointments for me. What? He had been divorced twice at that point and he made two appointments for me on Friday after Thanksgiving to go meet with top divorce lawyers.
David Glass: 00:12:25 Oh my gosh. And so I woke up on, on black Friday and I bought a suit at Bloomingdales and I made them tailor it for me on the spot and I bought the belt and the shoes and either buy the whole outfit. Yep. Went to these two interviews. I got a job, we flew back, sold a house, and it just happened that quickly. Wow. So before thanksgiving, you didn’t think about it at all. Thanksgiving, get a job on the Friday after Thanksgiving and then you sell and move out here. Right. And then we spent, we spent about a week really thinking about it and I’m a fan of drawing charts, spreading out a big piece of paper and making blocks, pros and cons for each area. And and it just, the only reason to stay in Philadelphia was I had just made partner. And because as a family law attorney, your practices local, those are people who live around.
David Glass: 00:13:12 You couldn’t bring any of that business with me and I’d have to start over. But the California lifestyle, which I’d never, I’d never been out here before then just offered so much promise. and and it’s, and it’s worked out amazingly in divorces, big business out here and tell people it’s like playing for the Milwaukee brewers and then right before the playoffs you get called up to play for the Yankees and they’re going to the world series. That’s the switch from being a Philadelphia divorce lawyer to being a beverly hills divorce lawyer. A huge lifestyle change coming out here. Oh absolutely. And we in on the east coast, everyone has a basement finished basement and their kids play in the basement and we had a rainy fall, a wicked winter or rainy spring and there was a period of seven months where we hadn’t been outside with our children and and that’s whatever, that’s the way everyone lives.
David Glass: 00:14:01 But when we moved out here, they were outside every day and the girls learn to surf and it just, it’s just an outdoor lifestyle that is impossible in a lot of other places. Wow. And so, so then you’re out here for five years and you go through your own device. Now you’re both attorneys. How did that go? Yeah. And so, I was an attorney, my ex wife had transitioned into selling real estate by that point and place to do real estate. Yeah. And she’s done really well. the, but over those five years that we were out here, we felt like we were growing apart and we didn’t argue, we didn’t have fights. We didn’t yell and scream in front of the kids. There was none of that going on. It’s just that each year we did less and less, fewer things together. She would go exercise and I would go exercise, I would go out with some friends.
David Glass: 00:14:48 One night she would go out with her friends the other night and, and then I would take the girls, our daughters to go do something. She would take another Dane and do them because we didn’t enjoy doing things together. And so we finally sat down at the table and said, I’m not completely happy. She said she wasn’t completely happy. We talked it through and just decided we could both be happier outside the marriage and how can we make this work? And so it’s a, it was a mature, amicable, somewhat unusual way, unfortunately, unusual way for people to get divorced as opposed to having big fights and someone having an affair or arguing over money or whatever drives people into divorce.
Leanne: 00:15:28 Do you think that because of your experience as a divorce attorney that, that put in her experience in law school and being an attorney for a while, that, that played into how you handled your own?
David Glass: 00:15:39 Oh, it absolutely played in from my point of view that the people, the amount of stress and the time and then the wasted money going through litigated divorce is, is an absolute sin and I’m a and I just was never going to be part of that. There was no way I was going to go in front of the judges that I appear in front of as a professional with my own ridiculous case. So who’s going to keep the piano and who’s, how, when are we going to sell this house? It’s, it mostly falls down to petty stuff that people hold onto. And I just, I was never going to do that. and my ex wife is, is, is level headed and a, an amazing business person. And she looked at it like a business transaction. All right, we’ve got these assets, we’ve got these kids, let’s make a plan and let’s live with it. Yeah,
The Boyfriend: 00:16:22 yeah. I’ve seen divorces where they’ll fight just for monetary. They’ll fight over a $10,000 thing, but they’ll spend $20,000 in lawyer fees to fight over that thing where you’re just saying it doesn’t make sense. Why don’t you just figure out an amicable way to deal with it, save your money and move on.
David Glass: 00:16:43 Right. And it doesn’t happen that way. Unfortunately, people’s emotions, emotions and their egos get involved and they want to win no matter what. Or they want to punish the other party and you never really punished the other party and you never really win in divorce court either. No one ever comes close to winning
The Boyfriend: 00:16:55 big statement because I don’t think a lot of people realize that.
Leanne: 00:16:57 Yeah. And a lot of states that requires a whole year of legal separation before you can actually file. Right? Which kind of drags people through the mud because in that time, so many one person can move on and start dating and the other person is still struggling with a breakup because usually one person wants it more. Right? Right, right. Or even if you don’t. Even if you both want, if one person’s moved on a little too quickly, the other person’s Oh, hurt. So that’s got to be tough too because now I know you just have that. Like if you. I can’t imagine being with somebody and being like, okay, we’re done and then, but we’re still together for another year and I still have to think that’s
David Glass: 00:17:40 right. And that’s when my. When people come into me and they’re thinking about divorce, the first thing I tell them is, I’m not going to pressure you to do anything. This is are. You’ve got to make your own decision, but some people have a tough time making that pull the trigger decision. This is over and I’ve got to then figure out what my next thing is. And they, I call it sitting in a puddle of mud. They, they, they keep sitting in the puddle that they’re in and it’s not comfortable and it’s not fun, but they don’t know what’s on the other side of that puddle and so they won’t get out of the puddle and figure out what’s next and if they stand up and take a couple steps, they’re going to be so much more comfortable just from not sitting in this puddle anymore and they don’t even know what, what’s out there that, that they could be doing instead.
Leanne: 00:18:24 And do you ever have a situation? I’m kind of curious because I know I love that the example that you’re giving up sitting in a puddle of mud because it’s so true. Some people will just sit there for the longest time and like until they’re sick and tired of being sick and tired. Right. And then I’m wondering like have you had someone, like they start taking those steps forward, but then they changed their mind because people don’t realize they can always change their mind. Not the best thing for an attorney, but
David Glass: 00:18:51 yeah, and in fact it happens when people first come into see me, I always ask them, have you tried everything possible to try and save your marriage? Not a lot of divorce lawyers do that. And every once in a while I’ll have someone say no, we just don’t know. We’ve been arguing and we haven’t tried to do anything and I’ll give them two or three very good couples therapist and there’s, there’s a lot of therapists out there and there’s certain ones who were excellent and and so maybe it happens four times a year. I give out that name. Most of the time they go through couples’ therapy and it doesn’t work in and they’re still back to get the divorce. But a couple times a year I’ll get a note, six, eight weeks later we’re in therapy. It seems to be working. Thanks so much for your referral and I never hear from them again. And so yeah, those are nice. Those are nice ones to, to hear about for sure.
Leanne: 00:19:34 Yeah. Yeah. Well, I’m kind of curious because you wrote this book and this and you just did this and it’s all about moving on. And the cool thing about this is that it’s not about the divorce process and as an attorney, I mean, you’re super familiar with that and you could have easily chosen that topic and how to meet, get an immediate or how to do high conflict resolution, those things, but you picked moving on and I’m like, after the divorce is over and I’m kind of curious about what, how that came about. All
David Glass: 00:20:05 right. And so for me, when I got divorced 10 years ago, the divorce part of it came very quickly, and then, and we sold the house and I found myself living in an apartment with my daughter’s half the time. And so I was dad half the time, but then the other half the time I didn’t know what to do with myself. I, I hadn’t been alone somewhere for a very long time. And so I did some research and I couldn’t find any books that focused on the first year or the first period of time after divorce. What, how do you reorganize your life? And so I, I sort of figured my way through and I made some mistakes and some things I did well, but, but the first thing I did was I reached out to my social network and on the nights that my daughters weren’t with me, I had plans, one, one friend that we’d go over his house and we’d watch football because it was Thursday night football night and and another friend, we would go hiking on the Saturdays that I didn’t have my daughters.
David Glass: 00:20:53 And so it was keeping myself busy and reconnecting with a, with a social life that I didn’t have when I was married. so it was that experience of turning around and just assuming you can find a book on anything and I couldn’t find a book on the moving on part. How do you leave the unsuccessful pass behind, turn around 180 degrees and then figure out what am I going to do next? And even now, and this is 10 years later, there are a few books, when I did my research a year ago before I started writing, there are a few books about this period, but, they tend to be religious in nature and they don’t really get into the detail of looking at each aspect of your life, doing some, some, a critical problem solving and figuring out what you’re gonna do next.
Leanne: 00:21:35 Right? So I’m kind of wondering, boyfriend, you’re thinking something.
The Boyfriend: 00:21:39 No, I just find it interesting that, that no one’s written a book about how to, like you said, critically, look at each part of your life, be able to develop a plan and then fix it and move on. Right? And that’s. So you go over emotional financial and your social life, you, you cover everything,
David Glass: 00:21:58 right? Each chapter of the book takes you through a different area of your life. And the first chapter I look at is your own emotional health.
The Boyfriend: 00:22:07 Did you have to deal with a divorce?
David Glass: 00:22:08 Yeah. And that. And I, and I’d been in therapy. I’d been in practice training therapy. I’ve been in and out of therapy. I think it’s the, it’s the most amazing thing if you can go in and you can actually use the process to bounce ideas off of someone and fix yourself, but that’s tough.
The Boyfriend: 00:22:24 A lot of people are resistant to that. Right? So you have to be open to the idea that therapy can be helpful. Oh absolutely.
Leanne: 00:22:31 And also there’s a stigma associated with it with a lot of people still. It’s so much better now, but a lot of people wouldn’t do that. I even know it won’t come out and say that they’ve been to therapy or going to therapy or they think that very few people are. So the idea, and I love what you said too, it’s a, it’s getting an objective feedback on stuff and to be able to better yourself. And I think that’s like a missed point because a lot of times people think there’s something wrong with me. It’s not necessarily there’s something wrong with you, but we can all stand some improvement and being self aware and kind of being more introspective, reflective, and, and how do I change behaviors because we don’t even realize some of the behaviors we had built up over a lifetime that aren’t serving us.
David Glass: 00:23:17 Right? Absolutely, and some people say, well, I talked to my friend or I talked to my father. I talked to no, that’s not the same and you’re going to exhaust that person if, if your post divorce and you where you’re going through a divorce, you can’t lean on one person who’s not trained to to spell all that stuff on. It’s just not gonna work out. Right, and so I got into, I got into therapy with the ice and I’m going to be in a once a week therapy for a year and I’m going to focus on what did I do wrong in my prior marriage. It was very. At that point, I could make you a list. This is all the things my ex wife did wrong. That’s easy for everyone to come up with that list, but the other list of how did I contribute to the dysfunction, what did I do to cause him or her to act that way?
David Glass: 00:23:58 What did I do wrong in the process? That’s what I wanted to know because I didn’t want to come out then meet someone else and do the same thing again. And, and divorce rates for first. Marriages are 55 percent in second. Marriages are 65 percent of third marriages or 75 percent because people keep going out. They find often a newer version of the last person, they had a relationship and they play the same playbook. And guess what? It doesn’t work out, right? Yeah. And then say, a lot of people are like, Oh, I keep picking the same person. It’s like, yeah, but you’re also, you haven’t, I haven’t changed so I can keep picking different people, but it doesn’t matter as long as my behavior is the same. Right? Yeah. My father gave a speech at my wedding to my, to my wife. and he said having a successful marriage isn’t just about picking the right spouse, it’s being the right spouse and and that always just struck me is just the, the, the truest thing that was said at the whole wedding.
David Glass: 00:24:56 It was very short speech, but it’s a, you’ve got to make yourself ready to be a good partner to someone else. It’s not just picking it up. Perfect partner. Right? Yeah, that’s really, that’s going to stick in my head because it is about being the right spouse. Yeah, it really, really is. And relationships take effort everyday. And I’m kind of curious, like when you went through this process with your therapist, what was some of the most surprising things that came up? Right? Well, I mean an early surprising thing was, we were still, we were just starting off getting into it and and for whatever reason I described that the trunk of my car had all sorts of stuff. I had all sorts of sports equipment for my daughters and I’m actually at that point, I hadn’t formally separated. I had open house signs from my ex wife and the trunk.
David Glass: 00:25:43 I had everything in my trunk for anything that could possibly come up. And the therapist said, well, what’s in the trunk for you? And, and it just stopped me. It completely short. And I was like, wow, what? I’m not exercising. I don’t have any hobbies. I’m serving my daughters, I’m taking care of my soon to be ex wife’s business. I’m doing my own business, but what am I doing for myself? And it forced me to start thinking about what do I want to do. And and the first thing I did was I tried yoga, never tried yoga. I joined the beach yoga class. I did it for a year. I was awful at it. I know you after you’re still couldn’t touch my toes. I did. They still couldn’t do anything right. But it got me down to the beach in the mornings on Saturday morning with some other people and it was just doing something that was just for myself. I didn’t bring my daughters, didn’t bring any friends, just went and did it myself of yourself.
The Boyfriend: We enjoy that. We started doing that also. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I still can’t touch my toes, right idea. I totally get it.
Leanne: 00:26:44 and, and what, what else did you find that you do specifically? Like did you find yourself saying yes to a lot of things that you’d never considered you’d say yes to before?
David Glass: 00:26:54 I, I started thinking about, and again as a therapist, I taught people problem solving and basic problem solving is first recognizing that you have, that there’s a problem then. Then the second step is trying to generate as many alternative fixes for it as possible without editing yourself. So I’m going to come up with 10 or 12 possible solutions and not say, well, that wouldn’t work or that’s silly or that’s, that’s ridiculous. And then look at each one of those 10 to 12 options and figure out if I did option a, what would happen next? And it goes through each of those options and naturally one or two come to the top is the best solutions. And so in that forces, you have to, you have to force yourself to slow down and really think about that. Then people don’t do that. And I wasn’t doing it for myself. I used to teach it as a therapist. I had told people to do it as a divorce attorney, but I wasn’t doing it for myself. And so my therapist forced me to slow down and in the session, well, what could you do? What else could you do? What? Any other options? And coming up with even ridiculous option, it’s just got the thing going.
Leanne: 00:27:55 Yeah. And I can see the boyfriend thinking because now you’re speaking his language. He’s very much that analytical research, laying things out.
The Boyfriend: 00:28:04 Yeah, it just makes sense. But a lot of people don’t think of all the possibilities are everything that, how can I attack this problem? And then what are the outcomes of each of those strategies. But that’s a, that’s a great way to live your life. And I think as you stated, sometimes you don’t do it for yourself, but you do it for job and other people. Everyone does it.
David Glass: 00:28:26 Yeah. And you, you come last every level. So part of this first year post divorce is putting yourself first, what, what would feel good to me, what would make me feel more happy? And, and even that problem solving approach. I mean people talk about kids who were, who just react, you know, the kid takes a toy from them and they hit this kid always hits, doesn’t matter what’s going on and that’s the way adults act to. They have one thing that they use in response to something. They get argumentative or they get or they start to bully or they turned the, the story of bit and make it about the other person and project all have their own nonsense onto someone else. And you’ve got to get past that first thing that you’re going to do by slowing yourself down and figuring out what else could I do with that that would work better.
Leanne: 00:29:06 Yeah, exactly. Kind of in that also that process takes the high emotion out of it, right? Because now you’re being more objective rather than subjective and not reacting. So then you can actually respond instead, which you’re absolutely right because in so many people think it’s just like, well, if he did that, I just have to heighten it, or I have to, you know, it’s like, it’s about winning and instead of stepping back and looking at it like that, it’s like, I like what you said, it’s about what’s best for me, not about everybody else. Right. So it kind of puts the focus back on you completely. Oh yeah. All of those steps.
David Glass: 00:29:42 So I had a, I had a client once whose, whose ex wife was just awful, and she’d always write these long, awful emails to them and put them down and say he was doing everything wrong and then he felt compelled to respond and say, no, I’m not, I’m doing things right and you’re wrong. And we’d go back and forth. And I explained to him that his ex wife liked that she liked the remaining engaged with him. She liked putting him down because then he would, he would flip out and she liked having him get angry. And so I had to teach him just not to answer, and, and for awhile, any email he got from his ex wife, he would forward it to me and I would suggest a one sentence response. I’m sorry you feel that way. I don’t agree. That’s it. Send that, send that single simple email.
David Glass: 00:30:23 And she wasn’t getting back what she expected to get back. And she eventually the behavior eventually stopped and he was. And then after awhile he got good at it from seeing what I would do and he’d learned how to do it himself. It’s a, it’s a not engaging, especially if you have someone who’s in quotes, crazy on the other side. The only way to win is not to play the. It’s different. The lottery. The only way to win is to play. The only way to win is not to play the game. You just say, I’m not going to do it. Feeds off of the engaged to be that negative interaction. They feed off of that, right? And the facts don’t matter and the results don’t matter. It’s just getting you to flip out, makes them feel better. In a weird way, that’s how they act. That’s how they work.
Leanne: 00:31:04 So true. So you went through this process and you started going through, through the process of figuring out what was best for you. What were some of the things that surprised you the most that maybe you had been doing wrong?
David Glass: 00:31:16 It interestingly, it was my own parenting that I, I made a big change in my own parenting in the later years of my marriage. And so when I got divorced, my girls were eight and 10, and I, I didn’t realize it, but I had been what they’re now calling a helicopter parents. I had been too involved with my daughters because it felt good. I wasn’t getting those good feelings from my ex wife, but if I was very involved with my daughters, I got all sorts of positive feedback. Oh thanks dad. You’re a great dad and this is so much fun and all that stuff that’s easy to get that sort of that feedback. And so I was just on top of them and and going through therapy, like for example, my older daughter used to be anxious about being late places and so I just always made sure we were always early and my therapist said, when you pick her up from school tomorrow, be three minutes late and the next day be seven minutes late and just see what happens.
David Glass: 00:32:11 She’ll realize that she got nervous that you still showed up and nothing bad happened. And so I had to force myself to go the other direction and I, and I started giving my daughters a lot more space and as a result they came into themselves and it was just in the nick of time before they became teenagers and then had to go through the whole process of figuring out who they were and, and, and, and they hated me and they hated their mom and then they loved me and they loved whatever was going on day to day, minute to minute. But I gave them that, that space to do that. And they’ve both grown up amazingly for it. And if I hadn’t got divorced, I don’t know that I would’ve stepped back like, like that.
Leanne: 00:32:47 Wow. So it’s not only helped you to submit your daughters? Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
David Glass: 00:32:52 Yeah. And then one’s a, one’s a college sophomore and one’s a high school junior. And just doing amazingly.
Leanne: 00:32:58 Yeah. What was the biggest thing that helped you get into a better emotional space? Was there any one thing that is kind of really helped you find some clarity?
David Glass: 00:33:10 it was just a, it was just getting the message that divorce is a second chance. It’s not talked about. It’s a mistake. And I think part of the reason I didn’t get divorced as early as I should have was I was worried about admitting I’d made a mistake. I picked the wrong person, I didn’t run my life the right way. This didn’t work out. And you have to admit that to everyone when you get divorced. But getting past that admission, realizing that half the people in this world these days are getting divorced anyway, so it’s not a unique problem. But then stepping a couple steps for it and then saying, now I can, I can figure out whatever I want to do. I still have my daughters and I’m still going to live locally because they’re still in school, but in my life, how do I want it to be? And so that was the biggest realization that, that a divorce is a second chance, a second chance at happiness.
Leanne: 00:33:59 Yeah. And I know so. Okay. So, so in your book, once you are starting to, to heal emotionally and everything and you looked at your social environment, what, what happened with that? Right. And so, and so socially I had
David Glass: 00:34:13 a bunch of friends that I’ve had forever. Some of them knew me from the marriage, some of them knew me before the marriage. and as I reached out to various people to try and fill my time as I described before, I wasn’t having as much fun as I, as I want it to. Some of the older friends. All we did was talk about the glory days from the Springsteen Song, just talking about that stuff. And we never moved onto what was going on now, or I had relatively shallow relationships with people. We were friendly, we enjoyed time with each other, but I didn’t feel like I could talk to them about what was bothering me or how I want it to change my business or how my then law partner wasn’t the right law partner for whatever was going on. I didn’t feel safe enough to talk to them about that.
David Glass: 00:34:56 And so I just looked at all my friends and, and again made a chart and what am I getting from this relationship? What am I paying for in this relationship? What am I not getting from the relationship? And I, and I, I whittled down the, the, the, the breadth of my friends, the list of friends to the people I was really enjoying and felt most comfortable with. And and it’s not. And it’s not like breaking up with somebody just sorta, you stop responding. You don’t go out as often. And then people sort of drift away. And, and when I explained that to other people about the book or people have read that chapter, they’re all bothered by it. How can you just get rid of, get rid of your friends? And I always say to people, think about who you invited to your wedding if you’re married 10 years ago and who, if you were getting married today, what would your invite list b.
David Glass: 00:35:42 and it’s almost never. There’s no one on the list. I didn’t mom, dad, uncle, whoever, but all the friends even I’m remarried for the seven years now, the list of friends probably wouldn’t even be close to the same. And so people come in and out of your life, they do it sort of fluidly and you can allow this to happen. You don’t have to hang on to friends just because they’ve been friends just because you’re on Facebook. Yeah, right. And Facebook is another thing. Those, I still see those people and I comment and people I knew from high school back east and like you said, it wasn’t a huge. He didn’t say, I’m not your friend anymore. It wasn’t like that. It was just you just let it drift apart on your own. It just follow its own course and. Right, and then yeah. Did you introduce new people into your life at that?
David Glass: 00:36:25 Right. And then it was then it was, as I’m meeting people, it was critically think, is this person a good match for me? And so I don’t drink, I don’t enjoy it. I enjoy drinking and so people who like going out to bars, they’re off the list. I’m not going to go out to bars and and set my diet coke all night while they’re getting drunk and having. They’re having fun but that’s not fun for me. That was an easy thing to do, but or people who weren’t involved with families and are always looking for their next date. That’s not me either. And so I just thought about what do I enjoy from people?
Leanne: 00:36:54 Yeah. And then also those people, like what some general mood and conversation. Every time I’m with you, if it’s negative and toxic, then why am I continuing this? Or if you’re always late and frustrating me, why am I hanging on?
David Glass: 00:37:07 Right. And part of it was then, then meeting my wife, my girlfriend, finance, now wife, and and we went through the same process with all of our friends on either side who do we enjoy together? and we did the process again and now we’ve now we have a two year old son. And so part of the process is which of these other parents at the pre preschool class that we go to do we like and who do we not really do you say hi, do with the class, maybe go to coffee with, but we’re really not going to get that involved with them. But it’s that, it’s that consciousness of really thinking through do I want to do this or not, as opposed to just whatever comes your way you deal with and it’s an active way of being versus being passive. And that that passivity I think leads to people being burdened down with, with people they don’t enjoy or a possessions they don’t really need and lead you to unhappiness.
David Glass: 00:37:58 Yeah. Right. And then, and then breaking it down into pieces and looking at each piece. And if you look at the whole, what am I going to change? It’s impossible. There’s too many things. But if you look at a little corner called friends and you look at a little piece called, what’s my financial life like? And again, after a divorce, someone’s paying too much support. Someone’s receiving not enough support. In my case, there was no support. We made the same amount of money and it was. It was no issue. But a lot of my clients deal with that and I say, you’ve got to. You’ve got to have a new budget. I know you used to spend this much money, but right now you received this much money or you make this much money and you send this much money to your ex. So that’s your new budget. Just sit down and figure out a budget. And if you can’t afford to stop at Starbucks every day on the weight, on the way to work, then brew coffee at home. And there’s this sort of simple things you can do to fix your budget, but you got to focus on it. You gotta write it down. I write everything down on paper. People do it on a computer too, but for me just writing it down on paper makes it real and then you can start crossing things out and checking things off.
Leanne: 00:38:57 Right. It’s, it’s so helpful to kind of re taking a. I like how your processes of reassessing things. It’s not just general as they shouldn’t be in general, but you are very specific and methodical about it, which,
The Boyfriend: 00:39:12 well, you said you can’t look. If you look at everything as a whole, it’s just too burdensome. You’re just like, it’s too much. You bring it down and then just start looking at each piece and, and going through a systematic, a process of decision making. You can, you can, you can tackle these things can come up with solutions for yourself.
David Glass: 00:39:33 Oh yeah, sure. And I, I spread out a big piece of paper and I made six blocks and one was called a a home and one was financial and one was emotional and one was friends and one was a future partner and I’m missing one, but there was another block. They’re each in each block. I split it in half and what do I like and what do I don’t like and so the what do I don’t like become the problems that you’re going to address and then each one of those, because you focus on one little bullet point at a time and once that’s fixed you move on to the next one. And in fact, I advise people to fix the easiest thing first because you build up some sort of momentum. Hey, I fixed this. It took a day and productive. I did something and that makes you then want to do the next one and you can build up to the harder things that feeling successful.
Leanne: 00:40:17 That’s great. So in your book, Do you have worksheets? Are Examples of these charts?
David Glass: 00:40:21 Yeah, I have an example of the chart in the, in the, in the book, I tell people that can do it on an excel spreadsheet. They can do it on paper, they can do whatever they want, but, but forcing them,
Leanne: 00:40:33 I do too. I kind of am patronize you like, I’m laughing to myself because I go, let’s say your friends listen to us on this podcast and they’re like, hey, they made a chart. I’m by wonder where we are as friends and I can see your next gathering at your home and they’re like looking in your Dan, do you have a solid the wall?
David Glass: 00:40:49 I wish. I wish I’d saved it too. I didn’t say I sort of work through this whole chart and when everything was checked off I got rid of it. I wish I’d saved it because that would be a neat thing to put into the appendix on the book or just to have a. I remember doing it though. So that, that was.
Leanne: 00:41:02 But important thing. Does your wife now, does she do this kind of stuff with you?
David Glass: 00:41:05 We do. We, I mean, and part of the, the one of the later chapters is meeting a new partner and eventually introducing them if you have an existing family and doing all that stuff. But we made the decision after, after we’d been together for awhile, we need to get into couple’s counseling before we got married at to figure out what are our issues, what are the things that we are going to argue about, where do we don’t, we’re maybe we don’t see eye to eye, where are we going to have tension and let’s work on it now and fix those things now early in the relationship so that later on it doesn’t become a problem. Well that’s again to the active versus passive thing. So you actively addressed it before you made that next step and then. And then moved on. Yeah, and it was, was murder.
David Glass: 00:41:48 I mean because I picked the toughest, strongest, maybe meanest couple’s therapist we could find because if you’re fully committed to it, they’re going to. They’re not just going to allow you to keep coming, they’re going to work you through these things. And, and some sessions I came out feeling like a wrung out rag, like I had just been worked over in some sessions. My then fiancé felt like, you know, why was she always picking on me? But by the end of it was 12 or 14 sessions, we had figured out what our issues were and then problem solved on. For example, one issue was that I had my own law firm at the time. I wasn’t part of a bigger firm at a small free attorney firm and some months I would make a lot of money in some months I’d make a little money and I just had a line of credit and I knew by the end of the year it all worked out and it made my then fiancé nuts because she’d say, well, what are you going to make this month?
David Glass: 00:42:39 So I don’t know. I’m waiting on the last day. I’m going to run the numbers and we’ll see what I make and that’s. But it’ll all work out at the end. She couldn’t deal with that. It made her too nervous. And so we made the decision that I was going to take my small firm and I was gonna end. I was going to join a larger firm where I have a regular draw and at the end of the year I get a bonus. And so we based our budget on the regular draw, she knew I was going to get x amount of dollars each month. She knew what she made from her job and now she didn’t have to be nervous. Was there going to be enough money? And that’s a simple switch. But she had to. But I had to hear it in therapy. If she didn’t tell me on the outside it was in therapy.
David Glass: 00:43:19 She said, I never know what you’re going to make and it makes me very nervous and I know you’re successful and you’ve always made money, but not knowing makes me too nervous. And I just. What can I change what we’ve brought out 10, 12 different things, but one that you talked about it and you were open to attack a bad word. But if she brought this up outside of the therapy and said, I don’t trust how you make money, what are we going to do? Or I don’t trust. It could be you could have taken that as a, yeah, I’ve been an attorney for 15 years. I make good money. Don’t worry about it. That’s a typical response. And that probably was my response on the outside, but getting into therapy where it’s all boiled down to what’s going on reading the room, as tough as it was. And I’m one of the, you know, we generated 10 solutions. One of them was just continued living off of the, the line of credit and making sure you pay it off by the end of the year. But if that happened it wasn’t going to take away her anxiety.
Leanne: 00:44:12 Right, right, right. So, yeah, I kinda, I totally get it. It’s like preventative therapy, right? I mean, is that a thing?
David Glass: 00:44:21 Yeah, I don’t, I don’t know if that’s the term that’s used to use that. Yeah, yeah, for sure in the end or you know, there were, there were all sorts of things that we sort of came up and then we just figured out how we’re gonna deal with it. One of the things was, what do you do if you’re both upset? She’s upset about something. I come home, I’m upset about something. We both need the other person to take care of us in the, in the downtime before we go back to work. How do you get through that? If you’re both upset and if you don’t have a system for, how do you fix that? It becomes a competition. I’m more upset than you. I’m more tired than you. You slept more than whatever you’re going to argue about getting me what I need right now and yeah.
David Glass: 00:45:01 Yeah. And it becomes a competition. And in fact, in one of the sessions the therapist said to us, you, you sound like two bickering. You sound like a big brother and sister. And I was just like, wow, after leaving I don’t want, I don’t want to be a big brother and sister. I want to be a tight couple. And the therapist had a, like a carved marble egg on or on a desk. And she said, only one of you can hold this egg at any, any given time. Only one of you can be upset and need the other person’s problem. And so you’ve just got to figure out who’s more upset. That’s who’s holding the egg right now and the other person has to take care of them and they’re fixed until they’re through whatever is bothering them. Then very quickly you’re going to switch the egg over to the other person and now that person’s going to turn around and take care of you.
David Glass: 00:45:44 And so taking it out of competition and realizing that it’ll all come around, everything’s going to be taken care of, but in the real world, that’s hard to do. Do you guys just have to like lay it out everyday? I’m at this level, I’m at this level of kind of things or it just, it’s more that, it’s more recognizing when you have a problem and so most days it doesn’t happen. But if we’re, we’re feeling tense with each other and if it feels like we’re about to have an argument and then what are we arguing over with her, whether she bought the milk on the way home, just nonsense. There’s very few things that are really worth arguing about, but that’s what people spend their time on. It’s recognizing that it’s a problem. And then taking a step back and even saying to the other, who’s going to hold the egg?
David Glass: 00:46:24 Who’s, who’s holding the egg right now? That’s sort of key phrase, then gets us each to step back and figure it out and look at each other and say, all right, I’m going to take care of you or you’re going to take care of me and then we’ll, we’ll circle back after we get through that. And that kind of stuff takes constant communication on a daily basis, right? Right. And it’s, and it’s, it’s impossible to be perfect at it. And, and that’s actually another lesson from the book is that you’re never going to be perfect to problem solving and you’re sometimes going to make the wrong selection and it’s not a crime and it’s not a tragedy. You, you’ve made it, you’ve laid out your solutions, you think them through, you pick one. If it doesn’t work, you come right back and you lay out your solutions again, or you come back with your second pick. And it’s the, it’s the making a decision, seeing it through. If it doesn’t work, coming back and picking again, that’s the, that’s the key to being a, an effective problem solver as opposed to saying, well, I made a choice. I got to stick with it. And being stubborn about it, just know it’s an experiment and if things aren’t working out, learn and change. And what would you say like when you were putting your book together,
Leanne: 00:47:30 what are, what are some of the key things that really stand out that you want to want to share with others? Like, you know, you touch on several of the environments, but like what were the key things?
David Glass: 00:47:43 One of the keys that I did, I tell all of my divorcing clients is that your new partner doesn’t have to have a relationship with your ex partner. A lot of people try to have their new wife least be friendly with their ex wife or correspond with them. Or I have two girls in organizing their social life. You have to email back and forth with your ex and figure out who’s going to take them this weekend and it’s gonna. Take them to soccer and all that other stuff and it’s natural to want your new partner to get involved, but if your ex, if there are as a person who’s hard to deal with, don’t do it. Just keep your new partner in your new life as separate as possible, deal with your, your former life in in the smallest, simplest way possible, but don’t let it intrude on your new life.
David Glass: 00:48:30 That’s, that’s, that’s, that’s something that’s huge for people and they just there. There’s one in 100 couples who get divorced and are still friends and still do all the things together. They still have Thanksgiving together with all their new extended families, but it’s one and 100. It doesn’t happen. It shouldn’t even be something that people aspire to. If it happens that that’s great, then you don’t fit my book. You don’t need my book, you, you figured it out or. Right, but the 99 other people don’t even. Don’t even try for that. If I tell people just you want to be friendly with your ex spouse, you don’t have to be friends. You don’t have to admire each other. You don’t have to do things together, but if you’re a friendly and it’s, and it’s based on the psych research, if you’re a friendly with your ex spouse, that’s how your children do well after divorce and in fact children of divorce whose parents are friendly do much better longitudinally than children who are in an intact marriage with their parents fight all the time and it’s just, it just seemed to people who know how to react and don’t act negatively.
David Glass: 00:49:29 Kids get used to whatever situation you put them into. Very true. Or even another thing about kids. We sold our house. We had a big house. Neither of us was gonna be able to afford it. We sold it and I went into, an apartment and it was a and it had all the furniture. I didn’t, I didn’t want to carry old furniture and I didn’t want to buy the black, a black leather couch that most bachelors by. And I wasn’t gonna be stuck with any of that stuff. But I was worried that my daughters were going to miss the house and our own pool. It was. Now we have a shared community pool at this, this apartment we lived in and we don’t have a yard and all these other things and I was really worried about how the girls were going to react and the first week were there, they were so thrilled that they learned that they could take the elevator up to the roof and ride their scooters around without me because it was a secure building.
David Glass: 00:50:18 And I said, go ahead, take the elevator up to the roof and ride your scooters and come on down when you’re done and knock on the door. And they were so thrilled with that. Every friend to come over, come on, we’re going to have go up to the roof. We can there. We can, we can do whatever we want up there. We don’t have to take my dad up there and kids always find something and to find special that way. They just want to be with you. It doesn’t matter whether you’re in the house or an apartment or you’re downtown, you’re hearing they just want to be with you. And a lot of my clients, a lot of my clients get stuck on keeping the house. I want to keep the house for the children. And I always tell them they don’t care for. I promise you, your kids will be fine living in wherever they are with you.
Leanne: 00:50:57 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m wondering, so now that you’re, well now that you’ve been an attorney for some time now, but when people come to you, is there something that you do different with them because you have this very unique background and that. Does that make it a different experience?
David Glass: 00:51:15 I try to make it a different experience. There are a, there’s a subset of people who, it doesn’t matter how you deal with them, they’ve got their own idea and they’re going to go through it and they’re going to make the mistakes. Even if you warn them, even if you put up a big sign, even if you put up a roadblock, they’re still going to go through it. But for the rest of the people, when they first come into me, I spend of the hour, we spend together 45 minutes talking about what went wrong or how are they feeling right now or why they coming into see me that day versus coming in six months prior or coming in six months later and try and figure out where they are. it’s, from psychology was called motivational interviewing, trying to figure out where the person is and what are they capable of doing.
David Glass: 00:51:58 and so I spend a lot of time on that. So I understand that this person number x isn’t ready to start talking about solutions right now. They’re, they’re still processing that they’re getting divorced. So don’t even talk about solutions. Just try and get them through these next couple of weeks or months person. Why is so over that their past person, they’re ready to move on. And so I’ve got to move things more quickly for them as opposed to taking each case in a, when I’ve worked for other divorce lawyers that the initial interview is, you know, how much money do you make and what are the assets and who owns the car and how much money did you put down on the house? And all those technical things which we get to, but I don’t have to get to it right away for certain people. And so it’s, it’s, it’s treating their divorce a little bit more sensitively, making it about their experience.
David Glass: 00:52:43 And I’ll say to them, if someone comes in and they’ve got a simple case, they own a house, they’ve 401k, they have two cars and they have a fidelity investment account that’s. And they don’t have any kids. That’s an easy divorce. And I’ll say to them, legally, this is a very easy case. It’s not gonna involve anything. I’m not saying this is an easy divorce for you, but we’re going to, we’re going to get you through this. And and then I refer every one of my clients to a, to a therapist. They don’t all take me up on it, but I try and find a therapist near their home who I know does good work to to then help them through the process.
Leanne: 00:53:14 That’s really nice. That’s awesome because you’re not just. You’re not here to help them with just the legal problem you’re actually helping them with are providing at least a little bit of guidance on all of this process of divorce.
David Glass: 00:53:24 Right, and I’m not providing. I’m not doing therapy. I’m not. I’m not doing that, but I’m treating them in a more therapeutic manner and I’m a whole and not just going straight for the legal part portion. Right. I’m looking at the gestalt. I’m looking at everything that’s going on in their life and trying to offer them. I’ll have women who are, who are uninvolved in the finances, sort of a stereotypical thing, but they still come in and they say, I don’t know what we own. My husband made all the money. He invested all the money. I have no idea. I’ve never run a budget. All I do is put everything on this American Express Gold Card and then it gets paid and they need a financial advisor who’s going to help them budget and figure out how they want to invest. They need someone who’s going to hold their hand and if they just go into Morgan Stanley, that, that person’s not going to do that.
David Glass: 00:54:07 There’s nothing wrong with Morgan Stanley, but the big bank, you’re not going to find the sensitive person who’s, who can work with them. And so each person has their own puzzle pieces that need filling. This person needs a new accountant and then putting them with quality people helps them move along much better. Did you find that once you went through your own divorce, did that change anything in what you do when dealing with other people? I don’t. That’s a really good question. I’m not, I’m not sure. I think we know and I know, I definitely know how it changed things. So, I tell people that in the first year post divorce, if you have kids and you’ve worked at a custody schedule, just leave the custody schedule the way it is printed out. Here’s the days I have my kids for the next year and these are the holidays and this is the vacation I’m going to take and don’t get into negotiating.
David Glass: 00:54:59 I’m going to switch you this Saturday for that Sunday. I’m going to switch this Thursday for a Tuesday. Can I take them to the Ice Capades on this night even though what’s your night? And while that’s something to aspire to and eventually get to that point where you can trade things. for me, I, it was too hard to do that negotiating because I felt during that first year that I was giving up time with my daughters and that somehow they were going to resent me for giving up time, to my ex wife, to their mother. It didn’t turn out to be that way. This was all in my head. But by sticking by the rules for the first year, you eventually realize it all works out in the end and as long as the kids are happy, it doesn’t matter whether they spend 49 percent or 48 percent, 47 and a half, whatever the number is, none of those numbers matter.
David Glass: 00:55:47 It’s just what works for you. And so I loosened up about following. I eventually loosened up about following the strict schedule, but I advise people to just stick with that schedule the first year until you’re used to living separately. Your kids are used to going back and forth in between two houses, establishing a new normal. What would you play with those times and things and negotiate after that established the normal for going right into negotiations. After you’ve negotiated your breakup and you’ve negotiated who’s keeping the 401k and where you’re going to live, it’s too much. It’s too emotional. I’m not going to make good a decisions.
Leanne: 00:56:24 That’s a great point. You almost need that whole year to stabilize. You know, just everybody just buts. Get to a place where we can all take a breath and step back, kind of get all the other parts of your life together. Right, and do all your charts and graphs and figure out like now what friends do we want? Where do we want to live in that kind of stuff. So that’s. That’s pretty awesome. And you, you do really bring a whole unique set skill set into your practice.
David Glass: 00:56:49 I tried it when it’s, it’s again, it’s not always successful and part of my practice is taking people through child custody evaluations. They’re getting divorced. They can agree on how they’re going to divide the children’s time once as the other person has an alcohol problem, the other person says she’s hanging around with a creepy boyfriend. Whatever reasons they don’t want to equally share or appropriately share their kids. The court sends them to our forensic psychologist to be evaluated and for those people I spend a lot of time working with them so that by the time they get to see that psychologist, they’ve essentially practiced with me and we’ve honed their story into the best story. It can be. There’s only so much I can do though and so yeah, I can practice with them and if they go in and they revert to who they were before they saw me, there’s nothing I can do about that. If people aren’t ready to make those changes, then people are going to be who they’re going to be.
Speaker 4: 00:57:41 Yeah. Wow. Wow. So
Leanne: 00:57:46 like I’m thinking back to my divorces, which totally different, but no kids, no kids. We had, we didn’t have anything. I mean we’d only been, we’re young kids and we didn’t have anything to really argue about. It’s like, do you want this comforter? No. Okay. You know, that was about the extent of it get a new one. But but what, you know, after listening to so many of our guests come through here with some of the problems and struggles that they had going through the divorce, like to have someone like you who has more of a
Leanne: 00:58:21 compassionate side, if you will, because I feel like when we’re in a specific industry and we know it inside out and we do it every day, it seems so practice, so obvious to us of what the next steps are and how this goes. But just somebody who’s in the thick of it and they, this is their first time doing it. They have no idea. Some of people, you know, like some of the people we’ve had on here, they didn’t even have a checking account in their name before. Like this is a huge step. So to come to you, someone like you who has been on the other side understands the psychological process, all of that. What a gift to somebody.
David Glass: 00:58:59 Right? It’s just knowing is knowing my clients on a different level than rather than applying what I do as a divorce lawyer to every single person who comes in. Like right now I have a, a, a, a female client who, I, I call it to her face. She’s a hairdryer. If you run a hairdryer too hot and too long, it has an automatic shut off. If it gets too hot, it turns off and then it’s got a cool down and it won’t run again for two hours or whatever it is. And she’s got that circuit. If we get too deep and things get too hot and we start talking about things too deeply, she shuts down and I can’t get through to her. And so I, I, I told her id or they’re like a hairdryer. You’ve got automatic shut off when you get too hot. So if I feel like we’re getting too hot, we’re going to pull out and we’re going to say, let’s pick up again tomorrow. Let’s pick up again next week and I’m only going to take you as far. And if I see you start shutting down, we’re just gonna we’re gonna. Call it off for that day and pick up again another day.
Leanne: 00:59:51 That’s really great. That is really good. You’re doing good work. Not Obviously, but beyond that. And, and I love that you did this book because like you said, there’s a lot of books about people’s personal divorce experience but how to get through it, but when it comes to actually moving on and putting your life back together, what is there? So this is a fabulous resource. Where can work in our listeners find this.
David Glass: 01:00:16 So it’s on Amazon.com. David glass moving on, takes you right to the page. We’ve got paperback, we’ve got kindle and and it’s, and this is the first week, but it’s been, it’s been selling sort of remarkably well. It went to the Amazon bestseller list on the first day. And so and so there’s a, there’s definitely a need out there for this sort of book and people are grabbing out for which is, which is a very gratifying.
Leanne: 01:00:40 So a great, a last minute holiday gift. Somebody, you know, or a great gift for yourself to start the new year off, right? Like this would be a great process to know, start on January one and maybe work on some of these things. So your first few months are these your skills for everybody can use that positive active nature in their life to try lives to try to clean up, cleaned up some of the issues, some of the friends and things that are not a beneficial or being positive in their life.
David Glass: 01:01:11 Right. And in fact that I got an email this morning from the therapist who I worked with post divorce, who I sent a copy of the book too, and thank you again for all the help that she had given me. And she said in her email, I’ve already read through half the book. It’s an amazing book, but it’s not just for divorced people. If, if everyone looked at this, they would be much more methodical and figuring out how they’re living their lives. I just, I just got that email today. That’s funny.
Leanne: 01:01:34 So it could almost be breaking up with anything. Right? Right, right. Yeah. What about, I’m kind of curious, what about with teenagers, teenagers, kind of a side note, but like I’m just thinking like if people have kids and they’re just going through their first breakup, send him on a better understanding. Would any of these exercises somebody would be able to walk through with their kids? I’m doing an assessment
David Glass: 01:01:55 that’s interesting. I’ve never, no, I’ve never treated kids. I did a brief internship, a brief, a rotation with kids and teens and decided it wasn’t for me when I was a therapist, but the, if you can get a teenager to slow it, slow things down and thinking this methodical way. It definitely works in educational psychologists use this with kids who aren’t doing well in school and trying to figure out what, what behavior patterns are they in? Right? It’s the, it’s the getting your, your teens to slow down. and, and sometimes they’re not capable of that. And part of the teenage years is also making all sorts of mistakes and learning from those mistakes. And, and I remember a professor do years and years ago talking about trying on different hats. Today this week I’m going to be the mean girl at school and then this week I’m going to be everyone’s friend at school and trying to figure out what works and so part of being a teenager is making these what seem like colossal mistakes at the time and a year or two later seem silly and funny and and everything else, so I’m not sure.
David Glass: 01:02:56 I’m not sure how yet.
Leanne: 01:02:57 I was just kind of curious because I’m like, boy, if I had this book, you know, if I had learned that kind of process at a younger age because I was married young, how would this have changed things instead of just reacting to things and relationships and learning later in life that, oh, I had some bad behavior
David Glass: 01:03:14 and in fact what I, what I’ve taught, what I’ve tried to teach my daughters is not to get married too soon. Good idea. It’s, it’s a, it’s a broad statement. Doesn’t apply to everyone, but the list of what I was looking for in a partner when I was a 26 and got married the first time versus being 41, 42 the second time. The list wasn’t. None of the things came up the same what I was looking for in a partner and how I want to live my life and that much changes in the, in the 15 years between late twenties and early forties. And I’m not saying everyone should wait til they’re 40 to get married, but maybe not rushing into it right away and then wait until you. And it happened with me and my ex wife. We grew apart. We started more similar, but we grew in completely different ways and one way really isn’t better than the other.
David Glass: 01:04:04 It’s just two different ways to fit two different people. And unless you give yourself to grow that way, I think it’s harder to make things work. It’s not knowing what you want out of life and what direction you want to go. And sometimes at 26, you don’t know that yet. Now when you think, you know what? I absolutely thought I knew exactly what I was doing and I had this whole plan and then, you know, guess what, it didn’t work out exactly that way, but again, that’s, that’s fine. It’s fine that it doesn’t work. Exactly. According to plan. You just got to circle around, make a new plan.
Leanne: 01:04:34 Yeah, and I do think your dad really said it so well and it’s not about picking the right person, it’s about being that right personally. Yeah. What a, what an awesome. What an awesome conversation to have with you. I’m fascinated by what you’re doing and, and that you put this book together and all the lessons that can be learned from it and I really appreciate you driving all the way out here and sharing with us today.
David Glass: 01:04:55 So it was my pleasure. It was a great conversation. Thanks for having me on. This is good. Thank you.