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Episode 094: Divorce Attorney’s Helpful Holiday Guide
Episode 094: Divorce Attorney’s Helpful Holiday Guide with special guest Caroline Krauss-Browne
This week we get serious and get expert input on how to fully prep ourselves for the holidays while navigating our way through divorce. Caroline Krauss-Browne is the co-chair of the Matrimonial and Family Law Group at Blank Rome LLP. In addition to managing a group of 30 lawyers in four states plus staff, she helps husbands and wives and mothers and fathers navigate the most important issues of their lives involving their children and their money. Caroline has over 27 years of experience and focus on her role as both counselor and advocate.
Leanne: 00:06 Welcome to Life Lafter Divorce Podcast, episode 94. I am your host, Leanne Linsky.
The Boyfriend: 00:12 And I’m the boyfriend.
Leanne: 00:13 Welcome back to another wonderful week of…
The Boyfriend: 00:16 This is where I’m supposed to say divorce
Leanne: 00:21 Yes! All right, well hey, thanks for joining us again this week and while you’re out there tuning in, make sure to rate, review and subscribe and well. Hey, why not? Check out the website at www.lifelafterdivorce.com. Check out the online store for all of your holiday gift giving needs because we have handcrafted and lighthearted soaps and candles for your self care.
The Boyfriend: 00:46 So do they. You’ve been working hard on these commercial, the Ed things. Do they get. How do they get to see those? Oh, if you go on Instagram, Facebook or twitter. Pretty funny. They’re funny. You got to go check them out.
Leanne: 01:01 Yeah, the ones on our Instagram stories or highlights and Instagram, those are the ones where the music.
The Boyfriend: 01:07 Okay. Those are the ones that aren’t music just for you.
Leanne: 01:13 So yeah, check those out and hey, guess what? If you are interested in life coaching, you can try before you buy. So I’m giving away one free coaching session per person and you can give it a try and check it out. And that’s a great way to start off the new year. So if you’re looking to, take your life from Buddha, Woohoo, give me a call.
The Boyfriend: 01:36 Well you’re right, just start out the new year. Basically have someone coach you through those new resolutions you made and hopefully
Leanne: 01:45 2019 is going to be a much better plan. That’s a plan. So boyfriend, if for those of you who listen to episode 93, boyfriend and I talked all about preparing yourself for the holidays, kind of emotionally and mentally like, you know, we’re thinking on terms of who are you going to hang out with, what are you going to do that day? Right?
The Boyfriend: 02:12 Yeah. Cause that’s. Well that’s, that’s what we would do. We would do. Turns out we’re not that smart, smart.
Leanne: 02:22 Not now smart. We’ve missed and overlooked a lot of things. So this week we have an expert who pointed out new things and every time you know, she played one of those out. It’s like, oh yeah, we probably should have talked about that. These are really great, great pieces of advice, for those of us who have experienced or are experiencing a divorce for so many reasons because boyfriend and I, boy, we’re out of broader practice or something here, but I’ve never practiced. There you go. So see where you’re getting your information. You guys have a really great guest this week and I think it’s perfect timing for the upcoming holidays as they are right here now happening right now. So, so I hope this episode helps you even more so than the last one because this week our guest is the co chair of the matrimonial and family law group at blank Rome. In addition to managing a group of 30 lawyers and four states plus staff, she helps husbands and wives and mothers and fathers navigate the most important issues of their lives involving their children and their money. She has over 27 years experience and focuses on her role as both counselor an advocate. So without further ado, Ms Dot Caroline Cross Brown.
Leanne: 04:08 Caroline, welcome to Life Lafter Divorce podcast.
Caroline: 04:11 Thank you Leanne. It’s great to be here.
Leanne: 04:13 I am so excited to have you here. I really appreciate you. I know that you’ve had a long day. You’ve been in court and it’s snowing out so, so thank you and welcome. I wanted to get started today because we’re approaching the Trifecta of the holiday season and I know that makes everybody feel a little bit anxious for so many reasons, reasons, but when it comes to divorce, it’s like multiplied times 100 and as someone who specializes in divorce and knows us inside and out, I thought you’d be the perfect person to talk to you about what we can do to prep ourselves for the upcoming weeks as we kind of go full force into the holiday season. So I guess what I’m wondering from you is what is like, just to kind of jump right in, what’s the biggest thing that you see different about the holiday season from any other time of the year when dealing with divorce?
Caroline: 05:20 Well, emotions tends to run high at the holiday season. People have expectations about what the holiday is supposed to be, even though it’s a time of transition when you’re getting divorced, everybody seems to want to hold on to spending the same amount of time with their children as they did before. It’s very painful to think that you’re not going to be with your children maybe on Christmas Eve or Christmas morning or on Thanksgiving. and it’s, it’s hard to, for the first time experience the new paradigm of what your relationship is to be with your children. being with the other parent.
Leanne: 06:01 Yeah. So you know, if this is, but especially with kids, right? Because what if, what about the last minute changes that happened and someone backs out. I mean, I don’t have children yet. I’ve been through a couple of divorces, but I’ve never had to experience that. What kind of recourse can people take when, when these things come up in, at this time of year?
Caroline: 06:25 Well, the best thing that you can do is to talk to, if you have a lawyer, talk to your lawyer. If you have a mediator talk to your mediator of well in advance about how the holiday time is going to be divided. There’s school vacations, every family has different holiday traditions. And so to the extent that you can agree to a schedule which protects the children’s time with mom’s family, if they happen to have a tradition of, they’re the family who always celebrates Christmas Eve with the seven course of fishes. Then you want the children to be with her. And if you know, dad’s family tradition is, you know, they celebrate boxing day, the day after Christmas. Then you want to make sure that the children are with them. You want to try to minimize the impact for the children as much as possible. I know that goes without saying, but these family traditions I think are so important to how a child feels in terms of stability and in a normal situation and then add onto the fact. And they may or may not know that mom and dad are getting divorced. But if they do know, you know, they’re scared and they’re nervous and you need to reassure them as much as possible that the way that the favorite things that they used to do are going to be the things that they keep on doing.
Leanne: 07:48 Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. So basically it’s kind of like putting the kids first and what’s best for them versus what’s best for the parents.
Caroline: 07:58 A thousand percent.
Leanne: 08:00 Yeah. Setting aside your own personal concerns and keep it important for, you know, what’s best for the children. And I think that’s so smart because we forget about that. Right. And I’m wondering too, like when it comes to a, to how far out should people be planning these things because I feel like the holidays creep up on us and maybe the sooner the better, but do you find that most people are planning this out months in advance or are they waiting till the last minute?
Caroline: 08:33 If you are just going through the process now you’re, you know, the divorce process is underway. Chances are no one, the holidays are not getting on the front burner of anyone’s attention until it’s close to Thanksgiving because then it’s, you know, oh my gosh, whoever spent Thanksgiving with the children typically, the other parent will get, let’s say the first half of the Christmas school vacation, unless you’re a family who definitely does not want one parent to have Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, and then maybe the parent who had thanksgiving gets Christmas Day, Christmas Eve is more important. So, and people want to plan if there are traditionally travel plans involved in the holidays, if someone’s family happens to be, say in Australia or in Croatia, which happens to be the case in one of my cases right now. that has to be planned out months in advance.
Leanne: 09:34 Yeah. Especially to make those kinds of travel arrangements. That’s a very good point. And what happens, like if people are in that, in that divorce process, what can they expect even you had mentioned like reach out to your attorney or mediator. What can they expect in timeframes? Do Law firms to ended up people are going on vacations for their own families and doing things and how does it, how does that change the process or the flow of during those months
Caroline: 10:03 Lawyers, like everybody else want to spend time with their families and friends on the, on the holidays. And the other thing that you run into is, you know, judges are people who also want to spend time with their friends and family and your, you know, if you need the intervention of the court, I would strongly advise not waiting until the very last minute because you may be stuck with the on-duty judge who, who pulled the short straw and you may not get assigned to you. You may not be heard by the judge to whom you were assigned or you might be heard by a judge when you are assigned and who, you know, won’t ever have any interaction with you on the first court appearance. And so don’t, you know, don’t wait till the last minute everybody. Everybody really wants the stipulation signed, I would say, you know, by Halloween.
Leanne: 10:56 Ah, okay. So that’s really good to know. So it,
Caroline: 10:59 which by the way is another holiday about when we have the push and pull as well, because of course, what’s more fun than trick or treating.
Leanne: 11:11 Yeah, exactly. I’m wondering, you know, is it during the holidays that the divorce rate increases or is it after the first of the year?
Caroline: 11:21 So, my experience in my practice is that January is the busiest month of the year for me and everybody who didn’t want to devastate their children’s Thanksgiving and Christmas, they, they go through the new year period and they have new year’s resolutions and one of the resolutions is I’m getting out of this horrible marriage, in the coming year. So my phone is very busy in January. The other reason why people tend to wait, and this is a monetary one, is that you know, you, if your spouse receives a big bonus, which is going to be paid in the following year, if, if the action for divorce wasn’t started until after the end of the year, then there’s no question that you’re entitled to your share of the bonus even though it’s paid after the, after the new year. So the longer you stay married in the year, the more of a share you’re going to get of that bonus. That’s really right. And deferred comp. So let’s face it, options and I’m restricted shares, lots of things, vest, and a lot of them vest at the end of the year. And so you want them to be in the marital pot.
Leanne: 12:40 Hm. That’s a really good point. And what about, taxes and things like that. Does that come into play as well?
Caroline: 12:48 not really. When you’re at the beginning of the process, you can file jointly as long as there’s no judgment of divorce issued in the year for which you’re filing. So for example, if you’re starting your divorce action in 2018 in December and you, even if you are going through the divorce process in 2019 and your judgment of divorce isn’t final by December 31, 2019, you can still file jointly in 2019. However, if a judgment of divorce issued anytime before the end of the year, you can file as an individual as a single filer for the entirety of the year, which is a lot more effective from a tax rate perspective than filing married filing separately if for some reason, and there can be many of them that you don’t want to file jointly with your spouse. So many of my clients are beating down my door to get that judgment in hand before December 31 of the end of the year so that they can file as an individual for the entirety of the tax year.
Leanne: 13:59 Okay. Alright. So that makes a lot of sense. Then what do you find is the, the one thing that people come to you most in their divorce process during the holiday season?
Caroline: 14:12 Well, some of it does relate to, access to cash, right? So if you are entering the holiday season, you are likely going to be spending more in the month of December than you do in most other months of the year. that can lead to tension and arguments when it comes to interaction between spouses. some people you know, put limits on the credit card and that will typically result in a very hostile response. Yeah. And again, it’s fueled with emotion because the spouse who’s buying the presence is saying, listen, this is how we always did it. This is part of our holidays. and so it’s viewed more punitively at the holidays than it would be say in most other times of the year.
Leanne: 15:11 So it’s probably best to approach your soon to be ex-partner.
Caroline: 15:15 Agree on a budget.
Leanne: 15:17 Agree on a budget, because wouldn’t it? If you don’t even think of that, are agreeing, putting a limit on a credit card. Is it possible that the other person could go out and ring up a bunch of credit cards without you knowing about it and you be liable for that?
Caroline: 15:34 So if the action for divorce was already commenced, you have what’s called a cut off date, debt that is acquired after the cut off date is not marital debt. So, if, if I were to go out and open up a new credit card and run up a $20,000 tab, but an action for divorce is already pending, I could not then turn to the court and ask my spouse to pay. What I could do is say, judge gives me support because this is the amount that we typically spent and I need you to direct my spouse to pay me x number of dollars of child support and spousal support. And that request would be retroactive to the date that the action was started. So, so there’s redress for the person if they’re cut off and there is protection from the others for the other spouse, for debts that are unreasonably incurred after the time that we have a cutoff date.
Leanne: 16:38 Okay. But that’s good to know because that would be a whole other thing. I mean, I wouldn’t even know where to begin about all the gift giving and how to do that. So ultimately it’s best if you can have that kind of cordial conversation. And,
Caroline: 16:54 and let’s face it, typically in, in, in a lot of families, right? One spouse is the spouse who’s the one who has that task that’s on there, you know, under their umbrella of responsibility. Some people, you know, a husband in particular, you know, I’m not, I’m not being, I’m picking on the men, but let’s face it, most of the time the wives are going out and buying the presence for their mother in law. Right? This is true. We need to understand who’s doing what because there’s gonna be some, again, some avoidable hostility and frustration when someone’s expectations about what’s going to happen are not met.
Leanne: 17:40 Yes. Yeah, for sure. So, you know, when, when people’s emotions are running high, well, an ad that financial fuel to that fire, it can get pretty hairy. What other things, really, if, if someone doesn’t have kids, what are some of the things that really trigger someone during this time?
Caroline: 18:03 If you don’t have children, it’s less complicated to be sure. we do have still, you know, the, the holidays are oftentimes stressful, right? There’s a lot to do even if you don’t have children and you may be looking around at your friends and your family and see that they are having what you think of, you know, sort of as the Folgers commercial holiday experience and they’re in a loving relationship and it becomes more apparent to you that you’re don’t have that loving relationship. And so, you know, it’s that, you know what, I’m out of here.
Leanne: 18:52 Okay. I see what you’re saying. So if you’re in. So for the people who aren’t having made the move yet, this is kind of where it determines this is the time.
Caroline: 19:03 It highlights, let’s put as it highlight the inadequacies of relationship.
Leanne: 19:10 Yeah. And social media plays a part in that, I’m sure
Caroline: 19:14 It plays a gigantic role in that.
Leanne: 19:15 Yeah. Have you noticed a difference now that we have social media so that we can compare our lives to everyone? Such a terrible way? Has It? How has that fueled fueled the divorce process for people? Like, do you notice a difference any different than them talking to their friends in person?
Caroline: 19:36 Right. So everyone who posts stuff on Facebook, they’re posting things that make them look good, right? They’re not posting pictures of themselves in, you know, hair curlers. I’m doing dishes at the kitchen sink. They’re posting pictures of themselves which reflect them selves in the best light possible. And that’s not reality, right? That’s not the world that we all live in. And I also think that that has. I know that I’m only 53, but I sound like a 73 year old. I really think that social media has really eroded the fabric of our society and has, you know, it certainly hurts children and it hurts families and a lot of ways because there is this fake plastic quality to what someone thinks their life is supposed to be. I mean, we live in a world of, of reality television. That’s the furthest thing from reality,
Leanne: 20:41 right? So true. So true. And we thought it was bad when other sitcoms came out, like leave it to and I had the ideal family or whatnot. Now we have everybody trying to be that all the time, right? To the point where people get professional lifestyle pictures taken. which is, which is crazy. It makes me feel terrible most of the time when I see so compound that with an unhappy relationship and that’s just bad news all over it. I’m wondering like, is there anything really unique that ever surprised you during the holiday season that like you’re like, wow, this is new?
Caroline: 21:18 Well, while I talk a lot about people who realize the inadequacy of his inadequacies of their relationship and and let the tension overcome them, there’s also that side of the holidays where people can, reconnect with what’s important and realize that maybe taking their children away from the other parent maybe is not such a great idea. And maybe just maybe in the new year I’ll give it another try.
Leanne: 21:54 Really? Yeah. Wow. That’s kind of like, that is that calm. That’s out of here and there, or is it more common than we think
Caroline: 22:06 once people come to my doorstep, it’s rare that they don’t follow through with the process, but I have had. I had a male client wants who you know, really missed seeing his kids and he called me up one day and he said, you know, do, do people stay in mediocre marriages so that they can see their children every day. I said, do people do that? People do it all the time. If you’re asking me if you should do that, that my friend is entirely up to you.
Leanne: 22:48 Yeah. Has he come back?
Caroline: 22:51 He went back with his wife and sadly for her, because she really was heartbroken. He decided after he went back that he just couldn’t do it.
Leanne: 23:02 So double whammy there,
Caroline: 23:04 Whammy. Yes.
Leanne: 23:05 Yeah. Okay. Well, you know, kind of good on him for trying. You know,
Caroline: 23:12 I did have two years ago with a client who lives on the upper east side of Manhattan and the townhouse whose wife actually had her boyfriend sleep over on Christmas Eve so that he saw the boyfriend sneaking out of their house on Christmas morning. I thought that was really like one of the all time lows. Yeah. You have to be like that. That’s low blow.
Leanne: 23:38 And that’s how he found out that she wanted out. Yes. Oh man, that’s bad.
Caroline: 23:46 Bad, bad is. I like to say,
Leanne: 23:49 yeah, yeah. She’s going to be paying for that one. Oh, that’s okay. It makes me feel better about my situation and that’s for sure. It could be worse. I can always be worth. I’m wondering like, have you ever seen somebody like we, you know, we talk about co going back to the parents and stuff during the season and do you ever see someone where you’re like, I wish everybody did it this way?
Caroline: 24:16 Yes. So there are the people who can still celebrate holidays together. I mean, I have a man right now who is, who came to me. He was, he had come out when he was in his early fifties. He was very high up in banking and was petrified that he would be shunned and that people would turn their back on him because he was gay and his wife who’s a really lovely lady, she not only accepted it, but she includes my client and his fiancé. They’re, they’re getting married. He and his fiancé are getting married on December first on all the holidays so that the children can have their family together. and that takes a lot of work and acceptance, but it’s a beautiful thing to watch.
Leanne: 25:16 Nice. That is very hopeful. I mean, that’s got to feel good when, when. Yeah.
Caroline: 25:22 Dad and his husband and mom and her husband are all getting together on Christmas Eve. Your mom and dad. Now I’m talking about a couple. Oh, this kid’s, you know, because it’s children’s parents, so when you think about it, so dad and his husband and mom and her husband. Okay. We’re all getting together for Christmas Eve and we’re going to spend it all together.
Leanne: 25:43 That is really nice. That is really nice. I’m sure it’s had they’ve gone through those awkward moments, but the fact that they have stuck it out and figured it out, it’s fantastic. It’s amazing. Yeah. Wow. It’s just a nice sign that it doesn’t have to be that hard. I think we make it more challenging than we need it to be at times.
Caroline: 26:04 Well, you know, anger and frustration and betrayal. Yeah. Are very powerful emotions and it takes a really good parent to put that aside for the best interests of their children.
Leanne: 26:19 Yeah. Yeah. Because it all comes down to ego because ego big time. Yeah, absolutely. And, and you know, I’m wondering like as people are going through this process like there, there’s so many different things that could go wrong at the holidays, but for people who are just getting it together, do you find that they have a more difficult time focusing on the at hand, like getting their paperwork and doing their documents and.
Caroline: 26:48 Yes, they’re too busy with all the other things that we need to do with the holidays. I have a very close friend who was raised a Catholic and converted to Judaism for his wife. And I said to him a couple of years ago, I sent Paul, don’t you Miss Christmas? And he said, you know, I really don’t. He says, I look at all my Christian friends and you’re all running around and you’re absolutely ragged, right? You’re spending this money you don’t have and you’re exhausted. Look at you. He says, I don’t miss that at all. And I started laughing. I said, that’s actually hilarious because yes, we drive ourselves into the ground trying to make everything perfect for everyone.
Leanne: 27:28 Yeah. So true. So true. Yeah. I, you know, and so when people are going through and for the people who are just like thinking about going through the process and getting it started, like we mentioned, you know, if they’re waiting until the first of the year getting things together during this time of year, you know, they have to figure out like how long does it take me to put all this paperwork together and have everything in order before they knock on your door.
Caroline: 27:58 So year-end statements are actually very helpful, especially those statements that show, you know, the activity in each account for the entirety of the year. Those summary statements are wonderful, but there are forms which do vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but in large part they ask for the same information, right? So you need to fill out what we call a financial disclosure affidavit or a net worth statement. And it’s, it’s a pretty daunting task. There’s an expense portion where, you know, every little category of expenses listed on this budget and you need to go through and every one of your credit card statements, I encourage clients to start collecting receipts when they pay cash for things because, you know, the cash leaves your wallet and then your Wallet’s empty and you never seem to remember where you spent the money when it’s cash. and so those things are labor intensive and the more that you can do to at least gather the documents together, even if you don’t have time to sit down and, you know, write down every time, you know, every gas charge that you made for the year and how much real estate taxes you paid, at least gathering the documents together so that you have them in one place will make it a lot easier when it comes time to sit down and and tackling the monster of that form.
Leanne: 29:23 Yeah. So for those of you who are running around and spending all your money and going crazy, trying to make everything perfect for Christmas, it would be a good opportunity to sit down and go through your paperwork and start putting things together and and like making a copy all the documents. sometimes like I know in my experience I did some of that before I, I approached my significant other and said I wanted a divorce. I went through and I made sure I had everything before they had an opportunity to fight me on it or hide things. So I wouldn’t know, you know, are there any certain things like, and how, like if you don’t know everything that somebody has, how do you go about getting that information?
Caroline: 30:13 Well, if you file joint tax returns with that person, you’re going to have access to every institution that issued a 1099 or k one. It’s going to appear on your tax return as an entity that threw off income. And so that would is an obvious place to start to look. but you know, because there is discovery in the divorce process, if you’re not familiar with your spouse’s finances, you know, there is. I’m pretty wide-ranging discovery in matrimonial actions in divorce cases. So you know, after you, you and your spouse exchange the statements of net worth, document demands typically follow and your, financial experts and your attorneys who are experts in this field will, you know, ask for a, a laundry list essentially of all the documents that we’re going to need in order to paint the full financial picture for the spouse who’s not really involved in the day to day issues surrounding their finances.
Leanne: 31:26 Okay, that’s right, because it would make sense and if you didn’t file jointly, see if you can find a copy of their tax returns so you can get an idea
Caroline: 31:36 that’s something that is produced in the discovery process and it’s not that difficult to obtain.
Leanne: 31:45 Okay. Awesome. I’m wondering like out of the things that we’re talking about, I feel like I’m, my mind is bouncing from one thing to another, so I apologize for not going in sequential order or things that might be logical. But with, with kids and finances, I feel like there’s so many moving parts to a divorce and then throw in the holidays on top of it. I feel like there’s always going to be something that I’m missing. And so I’m wondering is there anything that, that you think that people really need to keep in mind as they go through the next couple of months?
Caroline: 32:19 Perspective is a wonderful thing to keep in mind.
Caroline: 32:25 The divorce process is not short in most instances, right? There are those people who can sit down and make an agreement without too much strum and dr but if there is the process of discovery has to unfold. If there are, you know, questions about finances, you have to be patient and let the process play out. It’s sometimes it’s hard over the holidays to have that measure of patients because you want it, you want things to keep going, even though the rest of the world is sort of stepping back and taking some time off. in the grand scheme of things, I’m a couple of weeks is not going to make a big difference. and so I would urge your listeners to,stop and enjoy their holiday time as well and not focus so much on maybe what’s not being done during the two weeks that people are typically stepping back.
Leanne: 33:30 Nice. I think that that is very wise advice. Yeah. Get perspective. And, do, do you find that so, so valuable? And I’m wondering, do you, do you recommend like a, you know, you mentioned ghost go enjoy your holidays, go do something. Do you find that it’s easy for your clients to go off and actually do that or do they tend to be calling you more often and more frantic even though you may have set expectations or anything like that? Like what’s, what’s the temperature of that situation
Caroline: 34:03 if the, if there are no emergencies with the children. Right? And so we’re so far the questions and the answers, the dialogue has pretty much revolved around a, you know, a fact pattern where there’s no influences of alcohol abuse, drug abuse, domestic violence, mental illness, all of the things that, we want to control but we can’t control. And so those are the situations where, let’s face it, people also tend to drink more at the holidays, right? So you have, you, you have situations where people may not be thinking with clarity from the, from the start, and you have alcohol for it on top of that. And so there are many instances in which unfortunately, there are situations which require police intervention and court intervention. And, you know, we, we certainly do not like getting those phone calls, but that’s something that is, is the reality.
Leanne: 35:23 Yeah, no, that, yeah, especially with alcohol hadn’t even crossed my mind, but that is a big deal during this time because everybody’s indulging and going to parties and celebrating in some way. And, and I’m just wondering like, I feel like this is like a big, you know, the do’s and don’ts for the holiday divorce, which is a nice gift to have an because some of these things like if we don’t think about it today, chances are it will come up and creep up on us tomorrow and then we’re not prepared. Do you think that we covered everything or is there anything that sticks out in your mind that we’ve missed?
Caroline: 36:02 not really. we talked about, you know, I’m gathering financial documents and getting your access schedule in place and getting a budget for your holiday spending and having some expectations about who’s doing what. and you know, I, I would urge people, I know therapists just like the judges and the lawyers also like to go away for the holidays and spend time with their family and friends, but you know, if you need this support of a mental health professional, it might be a good idea too to clarify what those expectations are with your mental health professionals so that you are not expecting to have that access and support and it’s not there when you need it to be.
Leanne: 36:49 Great idea. Absolutely. The audacity of everybody taking time out what’s going on, how dare you know, this is really great because these are a lot of things that we really wouldn’t think about again until something goes awry. And then we’re, what do we do? Panic mode dialing you and it’s your day off and you’re with your family. So this is, this is great. I appreciate this because you know, my divorce has happened well before the holidays, each time and it’s sad that there’s more than one but but yeah, this is a really hard time of year to begin with. And then compound that with going through a divorce and put kids in the mix. You’ve got a recipe for disaster. So this has been so very, very, very helpful. I appreciate it.
Caroline: 37:42 It was my pleasure. I hope that you’re enjoying the sunny weather in Long Beach, California and I will be trudging through the snow as I make my way home to long island.
Leanne: 37:54 Oh my gosh. Well I hope you have a safe trip and get home where it’s warm and dry. And thank you again for taking the time out and sharing this with us. This is going to be so valuable for so many during the season and you know, it’s. Write this down you guys because you’re going to need it. So thank you so much and I will be sure to include your website and your bio and your information in the show notes on the website so that people are, have access to it and access to reach your office if they’re in the neat. So thank you so much.
Caroline: 38:27 My pleasure, man. Have a great night. You too. Okay, bye bye.
Leanne: 38:31 Bye Bye.