Episode 088: Create financial independence and master your money mindset
Episode 088: Create financial independence and master your money mindset with special guest Estelle Gibson
Meet Estelle Gibson, CPA, Speaker, Financial & Business Coach, and Author of the upcoming book Manage Your Money, Master Your Money Mindset – 5 Steps on the Journey to Create the Business of Your Dreams. Estelle shares how her personal experience has led her helping others break free from financial dependency. Learn some of her powerful money strategies help you to move past fear, confusion, and self-sabotage so you can create the life of your dreams both in and out of relationships.
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Leanne: 00:00:07 Welcome to Life Lafter Divorce podcast episode 88. I am your host, Leanne Linsky
The Boyfriend: 00:00:12 and I’m the boyfriend.
Leanne: 00:00:12 Welcome back to another wonderful week of…
The Boyfriend: 00:00:14 Divorce
Leanne: 00:00:17 Awesome. They just keep rolling. Rolling. Rolling.
The Boyfriend: 00:00:22 Yes. They just keep happening. That’s how time works.
Leanne: 00:00:24 You’re not going to go with me on that song are you?
The Boyfriend: 00:00:25 No. I’m not doing it.
Leanne: 00:00:27 Leave a girl hanging. Hey, while you’re out there tuning in, make sure you rate, review, and subscribe. We’d love to hear from you and while you’re out there check out the website at lifelafterdivorce.com. On our website, we actually can help you out on the upcoming holidays because we have our store with handcrafted divorce-themed soaps and candles, so why not spread the divorce and share our soaps and candles with your friends and family.
The Boyfriend: 00:00:57 That’s how it’s going to how we’re doing.
Leanne: 00:00:59 Hey, why not right? Hey and good hygiene helps bring people closer together. Hence the soap. You’re welcome. So when someone tells you to clean up your act, you can tell them you’re on it. So there is that. And also check out the tab called life coaching and if you’d like to have a free session with yours truly, I highly recommend it. Check it out. The link in the button to register is right there. Sign up and schedule a one free session per person so you can get a taste of what life coaching is all about. Hey boyfriend.
The Boyfriend: 00:01:35 Hey Leanne. I don’t know about this.
Leanne: 00:01:39 We’re looking at me a little hesitantly like, hmm, what’s our, what are we talking about this week? Well it’s a topic everybody loves to talk about, which is
The Boyfriend: 00:01:49 relationships.
Leanne: 00:01:51 Money. Oh Great. So it’s all about money. Put your money where your mouth is. Is that how the saying goes?
The Boyfriend: 00:02:03 I think so, yeah.
Leanne: 00:02:05 Because money and relationship. So you were on it when you with your guests have relationships because in relationships, how do you even talk about it? How do you mix business with pleasure?
The Boyfriend: 00:02:21 Smart couples find ways to communicate about money, but it’s just different. Everyone talks about money differently.
Leanne: 00:02:28 Well, all right, so I’m wondering boyfriend, like some relationships clearly as we have illustrated are easier to talk about money than others, but like when you just start dating somebody, it’s not easy to talk on a first date, like how much debt do you have?
The Boyfriend: 00:02:45 Yeah, you don’t bring those things up and you got to make sure that you guys are moving forward together relationship wise or at least interacting and then when you’re ready to make those bigger moves you’ve got to have the talk.
Leanne: 00:02:59 Right. So I’m wondering like do you have that talk, you know, when you’re just dating for several months or is it as things get serious and you’re thinking like am I gonna move in with this person?
The Boyfriend: 00:03:11 Well I think the financial stuff comes up while you’re dating because obviously there’s the, it’s changed,
Leanne: 00:03:19 right
The Boyfriend: 00:03:20 The alert alert. But when women actually pay now for dates and it’s no longer just the guy. So there’s. So since there’s mutual contributions to the night out or whatever you want to call them. So there’s got to be some sort of financial understanding between the two of them. But maybe not the deep financial understanding or having those deep talks about what you would have or how to get through finances, if you’re going to try to move in together.
Leanne: 00:03:48 Right? Yeah. I mean, you’re going to it. I guess things are going to come up as you start to date and then they progress. Right.
The Boyfriend: 00:03:54 So that’s all, that’s all I’m saying.
Leanne: 00:03:55 Okay. So I’m with Ya. I’m A. Yeah. But like, have you ever been completely surprised by someone’s financial situation after you’re already with them for awhile?
The Boyfriend: 00:04:10 No, because I pick up on cues and I get an idea.
Leanne: 00:04:15 What kind of cues?
The Boyfriend: 00:04:15 Just again the natural dating and pay and sharing and things. You, get an idea.
Leanne: 00:04:23 Yeah. It’s not always easy and we think, you know, and so I’ve actually been married and stuff, but it’s interesting because when I’m dating somebody, it’s totally different than when you’re living in the same house and you’re married to somebody and then you find out like you don’t know everything.
The Boyfriend: 00:04:45 Yeah. But that’s been 20 years for you. A Lot’s happened in 20 years.
Leanne: 00:04:49 No, I’m talking about then like back way back, but yeah, so yeah, but so like if I were to do it again I’d probably ask much different questions and stuff like that. It’s kind of like you really don’t know until you experience it because we’re always putting our best foot forward.
The Boyfriend: 00:05:11 Yeah. But I think time and some of these issues are more open to openly discussed. So I think that helps with where we’re at now versus where we were at 15, 20 years ago.
Leanne: 00:05:23 Yeah. And you know, and I and I
The Boyfriend: 00:05:26 in the big crash, the big crash played a big role too because now finances are talked to about
Leanne: 00:05:31 a little more more. And then when we talked to, you know, when we think about our past guests and what they’ve shared and talked to us about, several of them had said, you know, like they didn’t even have their own bank accounts and I think remember and people would have probably left a situation sooner had they been financially independent. And it’s interesting. It’s kind of like all of a sudden we look back and it’s like, how did we get here? So I think that’s why I’m really about this week’s guest because she really takes us on the journey of where our money beliefs come from, how we get into these situations and how we have to get ourselves out. And then I love it because she also gives us tips how not to get there in the first place.
Leanne: 00:06:17 She’s a wealth of information, literally a wealth of information. And I, I’m very excited because I even learned a few things from her that we’ll be talking about after the recording boyfriend. And just so you guys know, Estelle is offering a free money archetype assessment. So as you listen at the, toward the end of this episode, you’re going to hear the details for it, but they’re also going to be in the show notes and on the website under show notes. So our guest this week is Estelle Gibson. Estelle is a CPA, a speaker, a financial and business coach, and author of the upcoming book Manage Your Money, Master your money mindset: Five steps on the journey to create the business of your dreams. She helps her clients break free from financial dependency and empowers them to move past fear, confusion, and self sabotage with money and to learn powerful money strategies so that they can create the life and business of their dreams. Estelle has over 35 years of professional experience as a CPA and finance, purchasing and management, and has worked with individuals and companies ranging in size from small, privately owned businesses to fortune 500 companies in various industries. So without further ado, Estelle Gibson.
Leanne: 00:07:58 Hello, welcome to life after divorce podcast.
Estelle Gibson: 00:08:01 Hey, I’m so glad to be here.
Leanne: 00:08:04 I am excited about having you here today because I know you have a really good story to share with us and you’re doing incredible things to help other divorcees as they proceed in their future. So I guess we should start at the beginning and, you’ve been married and divorced and do you want to start and kind of tell us a little bit about your own divorce journey? I know you have like a three minute version and a longer version. Feel free to dig in and tell us all that or I’m going to ask you those questions.
Estelle Gibson: 00:08:40 Okay, great. I’ll give you the sort of extended version, not the three minute, which I can do. So, I started out my career as, you know, but your listeners don’t as a certified public accountant and about five years into my career met and married my husband and life was great and things were going well and five years into our marriage, I was going to go to breakfast with a friend one day and he walked into the kitchen before I left and just blurt out, I want a divorce and just like that, everything in my life changed. And it was a shock because I had no idea that he actually had been dating somebody for nine months. So for me it was not only the shock of, oh my gosh, my life is changing, but oh my God, how did this happen to me? How did I not know what happened? So after about eight weeks, he still, he stayed here, which was, you know, really difficult. he, he left and he walked out and I moved on, but I moved on with a burden because I had a house I could not afford. I had bills I couldn’t pay and I had responsibilities I just wasn’t ready for. And you know, you might ask, well, how does it somebody that’s got a financial background and in that industry, how does that happen to them?
Estelle Gibson: 00:09:57 And it’s part of my own personal story from my family, that has to do with financial dependency. I handed over my financial power to my husband, which many women do in their relationships. financial dependency is in lot of different arenas, but for women that are married and for me coming from a family where I saw my mom do that and my dad managed all the money in the house. I was sort of, it was sort of set up that way. when I first married, my husband, he lived out west for a job and so it was, we were separated for about six months and then I moved out and we got married and then I didn’t work for five or six months. And in my family of origin, the person that has the money has all the power. The person that brings home the paycheck has the power. And so I fell into that immediately. And that marriage, he just, ended up with all the power and in a lot of ways I liked it because I had spent many years of my life in and out of, you know, as you go from high school to college to being an adult, being in debt, getting out of debt, paying things off and managing my money.
Estelle Gibson: 00:11:13 From the time I was 17 and left home, I managed my own money. So when he said I’m going to manage the money, I was relieved. I was happy. I didn’t have to manage it anymore. It was like I was. I felt like that was freedom. But what looks like freedom sometimes can be masking is dependency. And that’s what it was for me. I became dependent on him, and it felt like freedom because he said, I just need this much money to save a month and then you can do whatever you want with the rest of it. And so I thought that felt like freedom to me, but what I didn’t know was what was going on, how he was investing or money, you know, where it was being spent. I had no clue. So that left me financially and emotionally, I had to repair my life.
Estelle Gibson: 00:12:01 So that’s kind of the story of how it started. And of course there’s a whole lot of backstory with me growing up and how I learned about money. But, that’s Kinda how I got to the place of how did this happen to me and now what am I going to do? And how I got to where I am today is that as I began to build my rebuild my life financially and emotionally, I kept seeing that groups of people that I was involved in, whether they had a lot of money, because in the financial world where I worked, people had a lot of money, but they were still afraid of it. They’re afraid of losing it and protecting it. And so there was all this fear and then I had gotten involved with the whole spiritual group and they were fear of not making money and not being able to pay bills.
Estelle Gibson: 00:12:47 So it was like I saw that both of these groups were not experiencing financial freedom and then there was always something missing. So I would take prosperity classes at church and people would be changing their mindsets and doing this stuff, but they weren’t like, they had no budget, they didn’t have. The equation was gone. And then in the financial world people were stressing out. They weren’t doing any prosperity or mindset work. So it was like there was always a missing half. And so I’m, I call myself a holistic financial and business coach because I work with people, I’m both, we work with the managing the money, the practical, what I call nuts and bolts stuff, and we work with the mindset, shifting your beliefs, learning your money story, and I’m really anchoring your mindset to support you and as you make changes. Right. Okay. So
Leanne: 00:13:38 What a journey that is. First of all, you’ve gone from a to z. So if we go back to the beginning of that, you had said something really important in you had learned all of your money beliefs from growing up. So can you tell me more about what that was like and what your beliefs were?
Estelle Gibson: 00:13:55 Yes. So I grew up in a family where my father managed everything, managed all the money and to the point of when everybody got a job as they were becoming teenagers and growing up he demanded that they give them their check. And but for some reason my father decided to teach me about money. So when I was eight or nine years old, I can remember, him showing me all the bank books and showing me, you know, when you get money and you save it in these different account. He was showing me all this stuff and he would take me to the bank and when he got his big severance check, I would go to the bank with them. But the, the, the thing I just realized in recent years as I’ve been working on this dependent financial dependency piece is that he would always say, and don’t tell your mother.
Estelle Gibson: 00:14:42 And that just hit me recently, like, oh my gosh, he was actively keeping her out of it, which is really a way, a form of financial abuse, finished dependency and financial abuse because she did not know. And I grew up in a dysfunctional family. My Dad was an alcoholic and I would always think, why does it, why don’t we just all leave him? But she couldn’t. And this hat, this is a very common scenario in situations where people are under financial duress, is that the men in the or the people in their life keep them away from the money because then they can’t leave. They are 100 percent dependent.
Leanne: 00:15:27 Does your mom, do you remember her ever talking about the money or that she felt dependent?
Estelle Gibson: 00:15:32 No, I don’t think she did. And you know, this was she, they got married in the 40s so it could have been culturally, this is what women do. She called it her mad money. She always had a drawer of cash. I don’t know where she got it from or maybe she stashed them the grocery money or whatever. But she always had her mad money and I’ll have to say once we all got to school age, my mom did have a job. She worked in a department store and I think she did keep all of that money. So, but it wasn’t a lot, but she did have her own sort of stash of money but never enough to ever get away. And I don’t think she, you know, if I would have asked her that maybe she probably was unaware of it, she probably was operating unconsciously, very similar to how I was in my marriage, you know, and she encouraged that. She’s like, Hey, haven’t paid the bills, you keep your own money. It was the same. So I saw that, I duplicated that once I got married and then so it sort of made sense.
Leanne: 00:16:37 Right. So, so what I find fascinating is that even though you saw your mom doing this and then your dad took you aside and showed you how to manage money, you, you had like an out, but at the same time you fell into a pattern when you ended up getting married. So. So when you and your husband got married and then he had transferred from his job right before, right? So six months before you’re doing the long distance thing and then you moved with him, you were married and that’s when you just let him kind of handle everything?
Estelle Gibson: 00:17:13 Yeah. When we first got married and I wasn’t working, I was doing the money because I didn’t have anything else to do. And then typical for me, what I get in a job, I’m all in and it, that, you know, I’m all in and that job, you know, I was running, helping run a company too. I was a controller for a, for a pretty big company. So I was caught up in that job, so I was like, yes, take it over. I don’t care. I don’t have time for that. So I gave it up willingly because I was doing that. I was handling people’s money all day. I didn’t want to do it. I got home. Right. Yeah. So, I think that happens too. And he was really good with money. He was in a similar field, more of an engineering field, but an engineering, be an engineering background in and he was just really good with money. We both were. So it was like great. You take it over.
Leanne: 00:18:07 Yeah. So, so then for what, a number of years, how long were you guys together?
Estelle Gibson: 00:18:14 We were together total of seven. Married for five.
Leanne: 00:18:16 Okay. So he ended up doing most of the finances for most of the time. And then you mentioned that one day you come out into the kitchen, tell them you’re going to go meet a friend for brunch and he was like, blurts out, I want a divorce. And then this happens. Now looking back, were there were, were there red flags that you see now that you didn’t see them that you’re like, ah, I should have, you know, what were, what were those?
Estelle Gibson: 00:18:47 Yeah, I’m just subtle things. One in particular, because he, he was seeing this woman that he worked with. He was always talking about her, but I was like, she’s a coworker, but he was, he was always to the point where like she went with him to pick out because we had bought, we moved and now we’re married to three years. We moved back to Ohio where we’re both from and we bought a house and then he goes to work and he meets this person and he buys two chairs for my living room and she went with him. Yeah.
Leanne: 00:19:26 She was picking out furniture for your house?
Estelle Gibson: 00:19:32 Yeah, I mean, I liked the chair, so it’s like, yeah, it’s fine, you know, I just wasn’t attached. I didn’t care. There are certain things. I was working on pictures and different things and he won. He was determined he wanted to pick out the two chairs in the house and so it was like fun, pick out the chairs. And he was like, yeah, she went with me and lunchtime and blah blah blah. And what afterwards I was like, she picked up those damn chair
Leanne: 00:19:54 and now you can laugh about it, which is incredible. Do you have the chairs?
Estelle Gibson: 00:19:57 Do you know, the funny thing about that is I’m a guy I dated, let’s see. It wasn’t the next guy I dated, but a few years later the guy I dated, he said, it’s like the two of them are sitting in the house looking at me, get rid of those.
Leanne: 00:20:16 So that’s kind of funny. In the divorce you ended up with those chairs?
Estelle Gibson: 00:20:20 I ended up with the house. He walked away from everything in the house.
Leanne: 00:20:24 Wow.
Estelle Gibson: 00:20:25 Yeah. Which you know, was not great for me because we had purchased our home years ago at eight and a half percent interest and that was a house and he made more money than me. That was a house for two incomes. Right. So I was stuck like for probably six months, like scraping by until luckily back then was when the rates started and I refinanced for significantly lower and was able to stay in my home. But I originally thought I might have to leave the house because he walked out of it. He didn’t want it. He just walked out.
Leanne: 00:21:00 So besides like him talking about his coworker a lot, those two shopping together, what, what other, what were some of the other things that you think of now that would have been helpful to know?
Estelle Gibson: 00:21:11 Like the phone back then we were doing that cell phones, what we’re doing last night, it’s, it’s phone bills and the phone bill was never around and what he did was he got a P.O. Box. He sent a lot of the bills, the phone bill, and some of the credit cards there. He sent those bills to the Po box so I wouldn’t see him because he was using that credit card and long distance phone and I would have seen it. So that sort of was disappeared. there were a couple instances where he left for work and I kind of made a mental note of why is he dressed casually today, but he wasn’t going to work. He was going to spend the day with her and, and I didn’t know that, but I hadn’t made like when I saw them I was like, no, they must be something weird must be going on at work today because.
Estelle Gibson: 00:21:56 But it was so different. Things like that or him coming home in a weird mood or differently. There was just certain things, you know, now that I look back, there’s, I remember one day that I made this big dinner and the look on his face was just like, you know, he could. So he just, I don’t know, I think it was guilt really. So some of those things that sort of added up and he also had a lot of freedom because I’m kind of the kind of person that I’m very true, I don’t want to have to second guess you right. So, which I won’t do ever get I 100 percent trusted. So he was always all these camping trips and he wasn’t, he was like, go ahead and camping with Steve, have a nice time, but he wouldn’t go and camp and with Steve, I know some of those things, just paying attention to code of the comings and goings of people. And if it’s shifts, you just got to be like, what’s going on, you know, is it signed? Were there early and I just didn’t, I didn’t.
Leanne: 00:23:04 Right. Well, and we don’t, we don’t really enter into a marriage thinking we have to second guess everybody or check on them all the time. We walk into it with the trust and this established trust of, I don’t have to question you six ways to Sunday about what you’re doing, where you’re doing, how you’re doing it, who you’re doing it with. So it makes sense. and you know, when it comes to the finances, I’m kind of wondering when it comes to the finances, is there a way, had you had more input into the finances of, would it have been different and how?
Estelle Gibson: 00:23:43 Absolutely. and I tell my clients this all the time, whether it’s a business owner or somebody personally, if you’re not, you have to keep some level of involvement because otherwise you absolutely don’t know what’s going on. And somebody could, they could do anything. I mean you’ve seen athletes and celebrities that people that have managers and then they’re bankrupt and it’s like, because they just want to hand it over and business owners want to do that too. Let me just hand my books over because if I, if I do that, I don’t have to worry about it. But Yours, it’s ultimately your responsibility. And even if you keep a high level of review of it, you still need to stay informed because, you will lose touch with it. You will lose responsibility and anything could happen. And so if I would’ve stayed in touch, I would have seen some of those things happening because I don’t know that I got everything I should have. Yeah. We had different investments and he’d say, well he actually brought the list of here’s the investments we have in how we’re going to divide them. Well, I actually think there were a couple of CDs that he got a certificate of deposit that I didn’t know about.
Leanne: 00:24:58 So. Okay. So let’s say you were to go back and do it again. And I, and I’m not always a fan of this question, like if you were to do it over, what would you do over. But at the same time it’s helpful to ask that question because then it helps us moving forward in other relationships. So if you were to go back and do it again, what were some of the. What would be some of the things that you would make sure you knew?
Estelle Gibson: 00:25:20 I think it’s important if you’re in a relationship to have a money conversation, to have like a family meeting or a meeting or some people call it a money date, that you have those conversations and you set them up that they can be very straightforward. I was working with a couple. Oh my gosh, it was nuts. They had both had two businesses and they both have separate money and it was just crazy. And when we got together I, in one of the suggestions, they didn’t hire me, but when the suggestions was that you guys need to have a vehicle for communicating this information to each other and the husband wanted, well what am, I can’t remember which one of them. But one of them wanted extreme detail and the other one did not want to know the details. They just wanted to, you know, a bottom line.
Estelle Gibson: 00:26:11 And so they couldn’t communicate. And so what I encourage them to do was I said, would you be happy with the two, you know, three numbers four times a year. And he’s like, absolutely. She’s like, I want you to see, you know, with my business, and he didn’t, so they never talked about it and it was creating an incredible amount of animosity. I think they didn’t hire me because he didn’t want, she wanted to do all this other coaching and different seven he was like, I ain’t doing. But that’s something that can be done is to have a vehicle for communicating about the money that is easy for both parties that works for both parties. You got to find a way that it works for both because if it doesn’t, then you know people are not going to do it well. And if your core beliefs aren’t lining up and your thought process that you’re going to have the trouble,
Estelle Gibson: 00:27:14 well that’s another point, Leanne, and I suggest people have those conversations before they get married. Yeah. Yeah,Because notoriously there’s somebody that’s a saver and there’s somebody that’s suspended in, there’s somebody that’s a worry. You know, there’s all these different dynamics and personalities and I actually take people through what’s called sacred money archetypes. There’s eight of them and people have a combination of them. And they are distinctly different, you know, there’s the romance, the romantic who is like famously spending and there’s the accumulator that wants to, you know, the bank account down to the nth degree and those two have to find a way to communicate. And it really would be helpful if people did it before they got married because, you know, that’s a huge piece of communication that could go funky in marriage if you’ve got a whole bunch of different viewpoints on it. And I don’t know if you’ve heard about how limiting beliefs are sort of stacked, but I, I always teach my clients that there’s like four levels of beliefs.
Estelle Gibson: 00:28:13 So there’s a belief that the society that we live in, which is of course we’re in the United States and if you’re in a third world country, what you think about money, how you operate with money is very different. So we have it on the society level. We haven’t in a community level, whether you grew up in a religious community or any kind of different community that dictates what people do should do with money. Then you have it in your family. You probably know people that said we have to work hard for money, or you shouldn’t have a business, you should always keep a job, or there’s all these beliefs from the family level and then there’s personal, especially if you’ve been through a divorce, been through bankruptcy, I’m overspend on your own, have gotten to some money troubles. You’ve got those level of belief.
Estelle Gibson: 00:28:58 So there’s this huge stack of beliefs that people have that they don’t even know about that they just bring in. Its like the baggage that you bring into the relationship. Raking in the money bag, money bag, slung over your shoulder. And so just like in my situation, my husband and I never talked about how I grew up and all that stuff about how I was trained in money and what it meant and power and all that stuff. All that stuff is going on in the background. And then people just start like acting out, being resentful, hiding things. I know a lot of friends that like buy stuff and they won’t let tell their husband and you know, there’s just all this weird behavior going on that if that can be out in the open, you actually could work towards goals together in a way that’s functional and productive.
Leanne: 00:29:52 So if people come from a, you know, if people are two different archetypes and and their core beliefs and finances and stuff, even if they have extreme differences, is there still hope for them and to, to find a way to move forward?
Estelle Gibson: 00:30:09 Especially when it comes to the archetypes, we all have some part of all the eight of them, but then once you know, it’s one of those things of, of realization sometimes when you just recognize like, oh, so you’re not like being that way because you’re trying to manipulate me. You just have a personality that’s that way.hat’s that way. It was just understanding it and then having tools to negotiate with and balanced them and like, great, your good at this part of you. You take that over and I’ll take this over and so you can assign and take on different roles that people actually become like excited about.
Leanne: 00:30:49 Yeah, and especially if they take on something that plays to their strengths, I’m really good at. Then I’ll take on this if I’m really good at it. Right. Its kind of like how do you divvy up chores you take on the tourists at you? Like I take on the tours that I like and then we split the difference.
Estelle Gibson: 00:31:03 Yes. And when it comes to money personalities just and I work with people and their gifts to cinema with gifts, there are so inherent in who you are. You just don’t get that. Somebody else doesn’t get it. You know what I mean? It’s like just don’t understand why you don’t understand this and that’s just because it’s just a part of who you are. Yeah. So you think everyone’s isn’t everybody do that because in that, so people operate out of that and then they feel like its personal and it’s, it’s, you’re doing it on Unperson, on purpose.
Leanne: 00:31:33 This person is doing it to us. The person is just being themselves. Exactly. We make it out that because that person isn’t meeting an expectation that we never discussed. That’s the other thing, like if I expect someone else to behave exactly the way I do about money and I haven’t had that conversation with them, how fair is it to put those expectations like they don’t even know I have these expectations. Exactly. So how could they possibly live up to them
Estelle Gibson: 00:32:04 and I think that’s true in, in just in general and relationships and I’m sure my ex husband and I had. I’m sure there was certain expectations that he had of me that I wasn’t meeting and one of them is what do you call the kitchen pass? Him and his friends would say, hey, see if your wife will give you a kitchen pest so he can go do whatever and I’m not that kind of person. So I think he was disappointed that I wasn’t. It was some funky thing where you needed me to carry enough to and I was just like, wait, don’t even ask me for some kitchen pastors. Go do what you want to do. But for him that was a thing, it’s almost, he had an expectation that wasn’t discussed that this is how you operate in relationship, probably based on what he saw in his home, which was different than mine. And so, you know, you have all those dynamics and if you’re not talking about them, oh my gosh,
Leanne: 00:32:53 right. Because they have this expectation that he approached you every time. It sounds like, like, can I have your permission because I know you’re going to be angry if I go, can I have your permission to go? And you’re like, why do you keep asking me this? Right. It sounds like maybe like there are people who will ask that because they want you to
Estelle Gibson: 00:33:14 they want you to show that you care.
Leanne: 00:33:17 that’s their love language. There’s that whole book on love languages again. So, so it’s like, it’s almost what I’m hearing is like you’re actually helping people learn their financial language.
Estelle Gibson: 00:33:31 Absolutely. Buddy personality. They learn their personality so that they can operate in. They’re really in their best self when it comes to money. And then as we get into working with people in their money, we look at what are the types that are missing that you might need to get help with, especially as a business owner, you know, what is, what is it that you need to hire out or delegate or, you know, function to function properly. And it’s the same in a family, you know, what are the, what are the ones that we have and what are we sort of missing? How can we either improve those skills or get some help,
Leanne: 00:34:10 right? And, and you know, when we look at stepping back a little bit to when you were leaving and when your husband was leaving and you’re left with all of this finances, so as no matter what archetype you are, you can fall into this situation where now you’re left with a bunch of finances and things, you don’t even know where everything is. You don’t even know all of what you have. So what would be, what would be like your new golden advice or rule for people that are in a partnership? Because I mean we never, for the most part, I can’t say never. There are situations, but for the most part people don’t enter them in and with a notion that they’re going to leave. But it happens. So how do we prepare ourselves without being paranoid? Like what are the basic steps?
Estelle Gibson: 00:35:06 Yep. first of all, having some good communication, number one. Number two, I’ve always told people, and I did it in my marriage and it really helped me to have separate accounts because when you have a joint account, you are tied to that person in two ways. Number one, they have access to your money and if it’s contentious, they can take all the money. And number two, especially as a female, if you don’t have things in your name, it’s very difficult, especially credit to get credit in your name. So if you have a joint account card account, and actually if the person that’s the lead on the Kennedy is based on whose social securities on, on that card, if it’s because everything’s tracked by your social security. So if the bank account and the credit card is in their social security and you’re just a signer on it, you’re going to have trouble getting credit and, and, and moving forward. So get your own account. Even if the person is a signer, you be the primary on the account and have them be the secondary. And that really helped with me in my, in my marriage because as soon as I found out we were getting, as soon as he asked for that divorce, I went down that next Monday and took him off my account. No longer signer on this account.
Leanne: 00:36:19 Right. So if it, because when people, because you don’t always know it’s coming, right? He could know it’s coming. He could have actually ran up all of your credit card account.
Estelle Gibson: 00:36:31 Absolutely. That’s another thing that happens, Leanne, is that I’ve seen this happen when people get divorced. One person will start running up the credit cards because usually they’ll take all of the assets and liabilities and split them. So if I’m going to go out, I had one friend, he was freaking out, his wife went and bought a car, they had like an American Express, he was a, he was a chiropractor and they had an American Express card and she bought like a Volvo SUV, which was like 70 grand credit card. Yes, you can have an American Express, you’ve got that kind of credit. And he was, he was like hyperventilating. He has paid for half of that
Leanne: 00:37:16 holy cow.
Estelle Gibson: 00:37:17 Or if he And he was the main breadwinner, he’s got to pay for all of it. So you really got to protect your assets because people can do that. They can start running up all the crap I’ve seen that happen in many instances. People, friends, people I’ve worked with, somebody starts charging up all the credit cards and you know how this works when you file for divorce, it’s not an overnight process. So they got plenty of time to start shopping.
Leanne: 00:37:44 Right? So let’s say, let’s say you don’t have, any joint credit cards or anything and they tell you, hey, I want a divorce. And then it’s, you know, in some states you have to be legally separated for a year, so in that time go out and established credit, even if it’s in their name. But are you still, you’re still partially liable for all that?
Estelle Gibson: 00:38:09 Yes. Because you’re married? Yes.
Leanne: 00:38:14 Wow. Okay. Well that’s just a scary thought. Right? And I know actually this has happened to people I know and that’s, that’s terrifying because you’ve trusted this person and now they’ve completely gone out and destroyed your credit. But what about with bank accounts? Now you had mentioned something about having joint bank accounts or not having joint bank accounts,
Estelle Gibson: 00:38:40 having bank accounts, having an account with you as the primary, which means your social security is tied to it and they can be a signer. So you know, they can get money out and they can throw a what’s called a dual signer on it, but that account, it’s your account and if it’s a joint account, which you can do, then you have to, if it’s in there under their social security or both of yours than you’re tied to it together.
Leanne: 00:39:09 Okay. So it’s probably best just to have two separate accounts, single accounts, right, right. Holy Cow. what would it be something else like if, you know, you had mentioned you didn’t even know about some of the CDs that maybe had or some of the other investments. How do you go about finding out what your partner is investing in? You know, so that if you guys split up, because a lot of people they’ll hide stuff. Like if he knows while. So how do you, how do you make that not happen?
Estelle Gibson: 00:39:42 You have. Well, the best way to do that is through communication. I mean, if you’ve got still a good working relationship that you agree that those things have got to be communicated to each other. If someone wants to hide something, they probably can. I mean, if they’re going to set up a separate bank, start squirreling away money and you don’t know about it, they probably could do that. I went through a disillusionment. If you go through a divorce, that stuff has to be alternatives to lawyers. So the chance of not knowing that is probably slimmer, but we went through a disillusion so you don’t have to in a difference in disillusion and an in a divorce and a disillusion, you agree on everything. So it’s basically an agreement. You sign it in a divorce, you’ve got to prove all that stuff in court, so all those at all that information has to be brought forward and then, you know, the court looks through it and then things are divided.
Estelle Gibson: 00:40:35 So it will come to pass if you go through a divorce, but they could be accumulating those things and you not knowing. So the best way see if mail is coming in that doesn’t make sense. Opening the mail would be helpful just having those conversations. it can get tricky, but if you’re working together on a life and you’re having a regular discussion or meeting about these things and, and everybody’s on the same page, that should be helpful. But like I say, they, if they wanted to they probably could hide it. You can just go open a bank account somewhere and start stuffing money in it.
Leanne: 00:41:28 Right? Well, what about when it comes to owning a home together?
Estelle Gibson: 00:41:34 owning a home, usually that’s a joint venture, but when you do that, you then have to get out of it. So, and we owned a home together, but I had to buy him out. So usually in a divorce, somebody’s gonna have to either sell the home, divide the assets or somebody’s gonna get it and have to buy them out. So, that’s a hard one because it’s an expensive, it’s a hefty expense
Leanne: 00:42:04 unless you just bought the home and don’t have anything really invested into it other than maybe you’re down and then you can quit. Claim it over,
Estelle Gibson: 00:42:10 right? Exactly. That’s what you do.
Leanne: 00:42:12 But if you’ve been married for a long time, chances are you probably spent years in a particular home and you have equity in the home and then you have to find a way to buy the person out of that. So
Estelle Gibson: 00:42:22 if you want to stay in it, you either have to do that or you have to sell it. Right. Right. And it’s, there’s not a really good way to go. I’m getting the house in my name. Forget you as kind of top of the bank accounts is easy and that sets you up for your future. So you now have an established banking and credit cards that you won’t be debilitated moving forward. The house doesn’t do that, you know what I mean? Yeah. Probably doesn’t do that much damage that way.
Leanne: 00:42:53 Right, right. Well, so wow, you’ve, you’ve had an incredible experience because you know, firsthand the traps that you can fall into, right, of not having the financial independence of not being part of that, managing the, the money for a long period of time and then having to step back in. Like you said, you had some struggles for like those first six months and trying to figure things out. What at what point did that change and what exactly was the shift for you?
Estelle Gibson: 00:43:22 well, as far as to two things, one is the money side and one e. What is the mindset side? So we’ll do money first. So I luckily worked with a lot of women that had gone through this process and we’re older and they’re like, okay, you got to start your investing because I was in my thirties and you know, when you’re in your thirties, you’re not thinking of your retirement career. Just to explain when it comes to accountants, there’s three different kinds of accountants and I think there’s actually forked cow forensic accountants now, but people that keep people’s books, which was an auditor. So that was what I was people that invest, so financial planners and investment, financial investors and then tax accountants and they all three have are differently regulated. And so you, it’s very rare to find a CPA or an accountant that does all three or four of them.
Estelle Gibson: 00:44:18 So I didn’t have a lot of information about investing because I wasn’t that type of finance professional. So I started learning about that. I started learning about investing and learning about, how it going to put away my retirement. And then these ladies that had, you know, so we all sort of worked on it together and then it was the, in the era that we had investment clubs, so we started an investment club at work and so I learned all about all my investing and then got a financial planner to do all the work. so I actually went, I had to learn, I went on a mission to learn about that, to get myself set up so that when I retire I’m in good shape. So that’s what I did on the money side. and then I had good money habits. I’d had a budget since I was 17, you know, my dad had all my, those habits, never really one way.
Estelle Gibson: 00:45:11 And, and we did have good habits when we were married to paying off credit cards once a month and all that stuff. So I had pretty good habits when it came to debt and I’d worked through some of those in my college years of getting into getting out of debt. So I just been instituted some of those things. I was good at a. The first thing I did, and I still do this with clients, is I put myself on cash because I had a limited amount of funds and a lot of people hate this. They’re like, I put people on cash when they want to stop spending on credit cards or be more conscious of their spending. And I did that. So I went and I got paid. I got all my money for the two week period in cash and then I was very. I just got and they actually make really kind of cool.
Estelle Gibson: 00:45:56 I think Dave Ramsey that makes those envelope things. There’s all these wallets and things you can do, but I just took a coupon holder and I put little tabs for all the meals and fun and groceries and this and incidentals and play money and I just had all. I just would carry it in my purse, this little wallet, he kind of thing and I just had my cash in there and then when I went to go buy something, I was consciously making a choice because I had a certain amount of money that I had and I didn’t want. I couldn’t overspend it and I didn’t want to start using credit cards, so yeah, people, people that worked really well. People hate it, but I always remind them, you get to choose how much you know can you want to spend. So just like I say, it’s like a diet. People go on a diet and I don’t call them diets. I call them food plans because you want to go on something that you have ultimate freedom in choice and the same on a spending plan or a cash plan, you get to decide and then you get to make a conscious choice. It actually gives you a level of freedom.
Leanne: 00:46:59 Well you think back to, you know, many years ago before everybody had a zillion credit cards. If you didn’t have cash, you didn’t buy it cash, you put it on the layaway plan and you basically save up for it as you pay for it and you didn’t bring it home until it was paid for. But things have changed that everybody wants that immediate. Like I want it now, so I’m just gonna put it on a credit card. I’ll get it and worry about the consequences later. And so I think the idea, when you say put, having cash, when I have cash in pocket, I have to think twice, like I only have this much for this week. Do I really want to spend it on this answer is usually not really. It’s not, it’s frivolous,
Estelle Gibson: 00:47:41 Yes. And it also provides which credit card doesn’t it continuously remind you that cash is coming in when I get paid in two weeks because I think when people charge things it’s like, well I got to get it now because I don’t. But when you start doing cash, you’re like, I have this $50 and if I wait till the next paycheck I’ll actually have like 100. And then I could get like a pair of shoes I really want instead of I’m just going to get this pair of shoes because it’s on sale and it’s maybe not the, you know what I mean? What actually builds, the the habit of more money’s coming in and then better decisions and then you start thinking longer term. What would happen like in six months if I saved up that money, it’s built a whole different way of thinking about spending instead of spending from almost not anxiety, but spending from I have to like an impulse impulse instead of impulse spending. Exactly. That’s where I’m looking for it.
Leanne: 00:48:44 It changes everything.
Estelle Gibson: 00:48:46 It totally does
Leanne: 00:48:47 and in doing so, it changes how we think about money, right? Because it’s when we have it and we can physically count it and see how much we have it, it shifts, it changes everything in a cycle. If this is it, I can actually physically see it and there’s not much left. I better think about it, but if we can’t see it in our mind it’s like, oh no, there’s still money there, and I think that’s the big mindset shift. Right? And so you, you spend a lot of time talking to your clients about their mindset. Like you don’t talk about just here’s the spreadsheet, here’s how you manage your money. Years is taking their core beliefs, everything that they’ve learned, how they look at it. Tell us more about that because I think that’s what really sets you apart from everybody else.
Estelle Gibson: 00:49:39 And so that started leanne because I had to rebuild my life emotionally, so I was emotionally distraught when you know this, what type of commitment that I’ve made is like done guilt, shame, anger, resentment, you know, all these emotions. So I took every class, read every book, went to every seminar, retreat weekend away. I’m like, what happened? How does this happen? How is it never gonna happen again? So that’s when I started my whole journey on belief systems and I’m still doing that. I’m doing another big thing on belief systems because I’m just, that’s my thing. I’m passionate about it. in helping people shift those belief systems for what they want. So when it comes to money, like I said, we have layered belief systems and we’re talking about people changing and when it’s, when you’re going to make a change, you have, you’re going to start getting into where you are, out of your comfort zone and where you’re feeling uncomfortable.
Estelle Gibson: 00:50:40 And that leads back to spending. A lot of times people spend for emotional reasons, they’re not spending for practical reasons they’re spending because they feel bad, so I’ll go buy that cd, that pair of shoes, that whatever to make myself feel better. So we take a look at what’s going on underneath and so what is that psychology of spending and what is the emotion that’s driving you? So if you and the way it works when I work with people, so we set up this is what you’re going to plan to do, and then typical in coaching you come back and how did it work? What didn’t work? And I did this and did that. Then we take a look at what was, what’s the belief that was driving that and what was, you know, because there’s always your beliefs. It’s thoughts, equal beliefs, equally emotions equal actions.
Estelle Gibson: 00:51:28 That’s the, you know, the pathway. So your action start with your thoughts and your emotions. So usually the emotion is where you can make the change. A lot of people think that they can just change their thinking. Forget it the if you do it, and I’ve done a lot of work with emotional brain training, which is about the limbic brain and the prefrontal cortex. The front of your brain is where all the thinking and all the logical stuff is happening, but it’s that fight or flight. It’s that limbic brain that is run by your emotions. That’s hard to when that thing’s engaged, you’re going for that piece of chocolate, that pair of shoes, that thing you’re going to buy because it’s a. it’s the drive to feel a certain way, so we take a look at that. What is that driver and a lot of people don’t even know that’s going on.
Estelle Gibson: 00:52:24 They’re like, they get home and they were like, how did I get those shoes? Think about people that are hoarders. It’s an emotional drive to purchase something or to behave in a certain way with money or to react or whatever. So we take a look at that by starting with the actions and then the actions action or inaction or what’s going on around the actions. We take a look at what’s underneath and start to put together really a map of people’s belief systems based on usually people have one or two core money story, something that happened to them usually in earlier life that then gets transformed and layered on that runs everything. So we take a look at that core and that start building that map of beliefs out, and the, and the cool thing that happens, Leanne, is that people come to me for money and then they end of transforming their whole life because when you change a core belief, it’s not just your belief with money, like a big one with people and money is that there’s not enough. Well, there’s not enough time, there’s not enough love. There’s nine to food, there’s bloody go on and on. So it’s an unknown enough. I’m what’s called a universal belief that when we start to shift that their whole life shifts. Yeah. Because they’re now changing themselves and their, their whole belief system. Right? It’s really powerful, a really tangible way of seeing it. So that’s what’s great about it. I mean, I get excited about it because it’s so tangible and you can see it and so people get it
Leanne: 00:54:06 right, well and it and I could see where that would transform. It’s a ripple effect. If your shift just as one thing in your life, everything’s gonna change because this behavior changes all of these and it kind of falls into place and I’m just wondering like what is your biggest transformation that you’ve seen? And somebody.
Estelle Gibson: 00:54:28 Oh Wow. Oh Gosh. There’s so many of them. I’m trying to think of if there’s any one or
Leanne: 00:54:39 something that was super surprising.
Estelle Gibson: 00:54:47 I don’t know that it was super. I don’t think I’m ever surprised, but I’m just tangible stuff. I’ve had people pay off tremendous about debt and I’m.
Estelle Gibson: 00:54:58 Well the one girl came to me in a lot of shame and guilt about how much debt sheet accumulated and what I said to her, oh, well don’t feel bad because you’re not alone. So many people are in. She had no, she felt it. You know that, oh my God, it’s just me. And so it was that simple. She just wanted to get some debt, paid off and take her kids on a trip or something. And once you started getting everything in place, it was like she transformed all kinds of stuff. She paid off her house. She got a relationship. She got remarried. I should plan a trip. Yeah. So, and the one I can think of, another client that I’m. It was just relationship changed for relationships. It was weird. We started getting to the issues with money that came down to a relationship issue with her parents or whatever. That whole thing transform. Then she was having, she was having a lot of trouble with one of her children and that whole relationship completely transformed. It was unbelievable in addition to all the money stuff that, that happened,
Estelle Gibson: 00:56:12 paid off a bunch of debt and got organized and her husband had a business and that shifted and that all these relationships shifted because that’s a huge piece of what we work on with money on her. Your money personality. And there’s the money personality that, it’s called a nurture that will give away money, let people borrow from them, be so she had done that. She had all these broken relationships because all these people owed her money and she had all this resentment and stuff and so she got all that cleaned up where she was empowered to either ask for the money or let it go and all that. And so she’s so totally rebuilt all of her relationships because that was in the way.
Leanne: 00:56:56 That’s huge. Yeah. Big Change. That’s not just like I created a spreadsheet and I now have a budget that’s changing your mindset, your emotions, how you interact with people or enable other people. You start, it sounds to me like she started taking care of herself. Exactly. Wow. Wow. I know a lot of people who could benefit from that. Right? Right. And all of this. What I love about this story, not that you got divorced, but I love the fact that inside something that’s so traumatic for you and puts you in such a difficult situation, you’ve managed to turn around and based on your own strength through this transition and through all the things that you’ve had to learn, now you’re taking your business to a whole new level where you’re reaching out and you’re offering that support and help to others who are suffering because you get it.
Leanne: 00:57:55 It’s not just a money management thing, it’s an. It’s tied to trauma is tied to absolutely tied to emotion. It’s tied to all of our relationships and it’s one of those core beliefs and I and I love, I’m super excited, like I almost want to take a quiz and find out what money archetype the type that I am to you of course, assessment that I will send to you. Oh, okay. Great. And do you ever link to this because I think the listeners would love something like that or maybe they could reach out. Okay, so I’ll put that inflammation in the show notes so our listeners know that the show notes can be found either on our website, under show notesiTunes, ended a podcast or they can find it, whether they’re listening on Stitcher, iTunes, or whatever. I usually put the links in there as well.
Estelle Gibson: 00:58:43 The link to the, get the assessment. Absolutely.
Leanne: 00:58:47 this is great information. I love that. I love all this stuff that you’re doing. I’ve makes me, we kind of want to like open my bank account and start looking and seeing how I can plan a trip and do all these cool things you
Estelle Gibson: 00:59:02 You can Leanne. Just start putting away. first of all I was telling we start with a goal. So if you have a trip that you want to, because you want to get excited about something so you know, start to vision for that trip and collect like brochures or whatever and then, find out how much it is and then start to plan to pay for it.
Leanne: 00:59:25 Right? Absolutely. I think because then you could have a choice of if you spend money on whatever it is that you like to spend money on or where you put that money in your trip fund. Yeah. See, so I’m going to have to have an in depth conversation with the boyfriend got. Have they come up with what is it we want to do and we’ll experiment with this and maybe we’ll both take the money archetype. That would be really helpful for the two of you. Yeah. I’ll be very interested to hear your two types. Absolutely. Very cool. Well, do you have any closing thoughts that you want to leave our listeners with today because you’ve given so much really good information. Couple things,
Estelle Gibson: 01:00:06 especially if you’re going through divorce is never too late to start, no matter what your age is and starting to plan for your future in whether it’s retirement saving, whatever it is that you have a goal for, it’s not too late so, so please keep that in mind. I also want to say see that your situation, whatever it is, is a beginning, not an ending. I took my situation as an opportunity to leave instead of fall apart. It was a launching for me in my life. it was this, I took it as a sense of freedom and I started doing all kinds of things that I’d never done in my life that I always wanted to like tap dancing and all kinds of crazy stuff. I didn’t see it as a beginning. Please get support. That was extremely helpful for me.
Estelle Gibson: 01:00:51 I had a supportive group of friends and family and you need people. Don’t be afraid to reach out because you need people to help you and to just to stand up for you, stand up for what you deserve. A lot of people in divorces will just want to be out of it. And cave. Luckily I had a lawyer that was like, oh no, here’s what we’re doing because I was distraught and she’s like, no, no, no, we’re going to do this, that and this. You know, so have people that can see clearly for you because it’s an emotional time and you may not be able to see clearly for yourself. Be sure to process your emotions, find a way, whether it’s journaling, whether it’s getting a counselor, whether it’s getting a coach, process your emotions because they will hold you back from moving forward powerfully if you don’t do that. and some of the practical things were get your own bank account and credit. let’s see. Is there anything else? Start a savings. Even if you start $10 a week, just start saving in some way towards your future.
Leanne: 01:01:54 Yeah. And when would be a good time for someone to reach out to you?
Estelle Gibson: 01:02:00 they could reach out anytime. I’m going to have all my contact information. I have several different ways you can reach out to me and Leanne will have all that listed and I’d be happy to respond.
Leanne: 01:02:11 Awesome. So anywhere they are in their process is always a good time. I think what you like, what you just said is it’s never too late to get started and even if you’re still in a relationship or entering new relationship, better late than never. Absolutely. Wonderful. Thank you so much Estelle.
Estelle Gibson: 01:02:29 You’re so welcome.
Leanne: 01:02:31 I’m excited. I’m going to start talking to the boy from about. He’s going to wish he’d been in on this interview. Thank you so much.
Estelle Gibson: 01:02:45 Thank you.